That Jonny B is certainly a handsome chap!

1: I have found derision and insulting behavior as a default setting works best, an occasional ‘you surprised me there by not bollocking that up!’ Can really send spirits soaring.

2: Be Professional. Not taking drugs and taking a crap BEFORE you come to work is a start.

3: Good luck with that.

4: No one wants to survey trees for utilities.

5: Going down the pub on a Friday after work with a pocketful of fifties, smelling like a bin dipping raccoon, having the good grace to chop up a couple of lines in the bogs for the impoverished youngsters is all that’s needed to convince the yoof you’re a man of substance and inspire the next generation to follow your lead.

Mick, your enthusiasm for our posts is much appreciated. Have an awesome weekend 👍

3) Be open to employment. By this we don’t mean working, we mean PAYE. Changes in how HMRC treats self-employment mean that a lot of subbie jobs are not above board. Could you be seen as a disguised employee? There may be fines to pay if you are. A day rate might sound amazing, but you could be skating on this ice and, apart from that, many of the benefits of employment (like the ability to get a mortgage, have holiday pay, sick pay, insurance, PPE... the list goes on) outweigh the risks of subbing.

Theres actually an interesting thread going on about this at the moment right here... 

Personally I don't see why anyone should be 'open to employment'. If they have what it takes to be self employed then it is a far better way of life in my opinion. And by what it takes, I mean being reliable, hard working, and motivated.

Yes a day rate does sound amazing, specially when its job and knock, but as for all the things you mentioned ie holiday pay, insurance, ppe etc, this should all be accounted for in your day rate, so as long as you're not underselling yourself those reasons are null and void. I'll just dissect those a little further though..

Ability to get a mortgage

Never affected me. As long as you are keeping your books then I don't see why it should be a problem for anyone. One of the reasons for being freelance is to earn better money, so unless you are doing something very wrong then there should be no reason why you can't get a mortgage.

Holiday pay

Accounted for in your day rate

Sick pay

Ok you got me with that one. Just dont get sick is my only answer. 

Insurance

Freelancers DO NOT need insurance unless they are acting as a bona-fide contractor, and theres not a single freelance climber in the country that will be working as a bona-fide contractor. The only insurance you may want to consider is personal accident cover, and whilst thats sensible its certainly not a requirement. If you are a freelancer and one of your customers is telling you that you have to have your own insurance they are simply wrong or mis-informed by their own insurance company, in which case please direct them to this article:

What is a bona-fide sub-contractor? | Tree Surgeon Insurance

TREESURGEONINSURANCE.CO.UK

---

What is a bona-fide sub-contractor and do I need Employers' Liability Insurance? We discuss these questions for Tree Surgeons.

PPE

Covered in your day rate, and as an added bonus you can buy whatever PPE you choose! No getting stuck with a pair of trousers that aren't a good fit for you just because they are the only type your employer keeps in the store room. And I dont just mean size, but every brand has a different fit to them and some just dont work with certain body types.
Likewise with harnesses, climbing devices, ropes etc, you get to pick exactly what you want rather than whats in the stores. Theres barely a tree climber in the business that isn't a bit of a gear junky, especially in their first few years, so being self employed and being able to buy whatever you want whenever you want is a big attraction.

Thanks so much for the considered answer. It’s great to have an open discussion about these things and see it from different perspectives. I really appreciate you spending time. Have a great weekend 👍 Kate 

Also per the other thread, if you are bringing own tools and PPE and working for a range of firms then you won't be a disguised employee. There is a simple HMRC form on the website to give you a definite answer, go through it and print the result page, keep it on file.

1 hour ago, Dan Maynard said:

Also per the other thread, if you are bringing own tools and PPE and working for a range of firms then you won't be a disguised employee. There is a simple HMRC form on the website to give you a definite answer, go through it and print the result page, keep it on file.

I just did this out of interest, the results were as expected. I dont really see what the whole issue is. You'd have to literally be doing all your work for a single company for it to flag you as an employee as far as I can tell.

10 hours ago, Steve Bullman said:

I just did this out of interest, the results were as expected. I dont really see what the whole issue is. You'd have to literally be doing all your work for a single company for it to flag you as an employee as far as I can tell.

That’s absolutely right. It’s just that not everybody works for a variety of employers. If the same person is paying you every week that’s an issue. 
I’m keen to hear these perspectives because we see it from a different side. Thanks for the comments, Kate 

How to keep going after 30?

Man up and crack on.  
 

There are so many people who simply cannot handle the physical and mental demands for this industry.  They quit after a few years with some excuse or another:  I doubt there is a long term climber out there who hasn't had a serious issue in their career.  The difference between them and the short term’ers - they don’t quit when it gets tough.  That is the bloody mindedness you need to excel in arb.  It is also the same attitude that gets you through the difficult jobs.

Too many people out there looking for a easy life IMO. 
 

Classic example of someone who cannot hack it, was the fool who wrote the article that was published by the AA.  The thread about freelancers being parasites.

If it is so called career progression?  I can’t think of anything worse than surveying for a utility company.

Ha! I thought it, you said it Rich.

Prolly a little angrier than necessary but spot on nevertheless.

I do not really feel there is any connection with the title of the thread and its content? Seems more like common sense advice in conduct than actual advice, and I dont really think 30 is the age most SHOULD be looking to more serious roles, given most enter arb late these days.

Obviously I wouldn't ask a lady her age but I'm wondering how old KateH is that she thinks 30 is old. 

In defence of KateH and to a lesser extent Paul Elcoat, there is a difference between a “subby” who works for one firm only for a little more than what a sensible salary would be per day who pays no tax and thinks they are better off and an experienced contract climber who knows what they are doing, have the relevant tickets etc, bring all their own kit, are properly organised and have accurate accounts. Let’s be honest we are all aware of the former and in all possibility have been in a similar situation to varying degrees, possibly unknowingly early on in our careers and it is an issue with the industry. 
However, in my opinion, for what that’s worth, we do not value manual craftsman in this country anywhere near where we should and this article and the other is a case in point. Climbing is not seen, to a lot of people, as a valued, respected and viable long term career, and because of this are not paid enough hence the reason there are not enough people in the industry, especially skilled individuals who have a decade or two or even three under their belt. In fact I would say that this is at the root of a fair few of the issues we face as an industry. I think both individuals would have done well to highlight the nuance between the two in their articles but I guess it just shows the prevailing attitude. You can have longevity as a climber but you have to look after yourself physically, be savvy and pace things. If you compare the attitudes and working environments for manual workers in mainland Europe to the UK the difference is stark. I would tentatively state that becoming/ staying employed as a climber in the UK past a certain point in your career will not help your long term outlook for longevity. 

Can we have a list of ‘the issues we face as an industry’ please?

37 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Can we have a list of ‘the issues we face as an industry’ please?

That’s actually a really good idea. Perhaps then we could look at targeting them effectively one at a time rather than just constantly mentioning ‘issues’

No need to sound surprised I had a good idea!

Some of the issues (that I imagine will come up) are some of the great things about the job.

44 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

No need to sound surprised I had a good idea!

 

Some of the issues (that I imagine will come up) are some of the great things about the job.

 

Haha, Steve's post did have a certain "bloody hell, he's had a good idea. I never knew he had it in him" feel to it. 

2 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Can we have a list of ‘the issues we face as an industry’ please?

Ivy!😆

18 hours ago, Tony Croft aka hamadryad said:

I do not really feel there is any connection with the title of the thread and its content? Seems more like common sense advice in conduct than actual advice, and I dont really think 30 is the age most SHOULD be looking to more serious roles, given most enter arb late these days.

 

Hi Tony, Thanks for the comment. Maybe I didn’t choose the right title. I’m certainly not suggesting getting off the tools at 30. More that by the time a climber is in their 40s if they haven’t thought ahead it’s harder to know where they’re going to go.

i’m quite new to the industry and learning as I go. I’m totally prepared to accept that I’ve got things wrong but actually the points I’ve made do come up in our daily life at work in recruitment. 
 

it’s really interesting reading the responses. 
 

Thanks for engaging.  Kate 

30's no age for thinking about getting off the tools, unless you're inherently lazy, bored, or more of a those who can't, teach kinda guy (or gal).

It is however the ideal time to starting thinking about and planning your long term exit strategy.

5 hours ago, Steve Bullman said:

thinking about and planning your long term exit strategy

Just last week I was informed by the younger lads at work that they'd decided about my long term exit strategy.

When they decide I've become a forgetful codger that needs carried, they'll drop a lump of timber on my head and divvy up my possessions. 

11 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

Can we have a list of ‘the issues we face as an industry’ please?

A few off the top of my head, staff shortage, skill shortage, wage shortage for a lot of individuals, less than ideal training for a potentially dangerous job with a fair bit of responsibility, I could go on. You may not face any issues Mick but a fair few do. 

7 hours ago, JW arb said:

A few off the top of my head, staff shortage, skill shortage, wage shortage for a lot of individuals, less than ideal training for a potentially dangerous job with a fair bit of responsibility, I could go on. You may not face any issues Mick but a fair few do. 

I started a thread, ‘Problems and issues this industry faces..’

as a direct consequence of your post in a hope that we could address your question.

Could you post those on that thread?

Thanks.

Mick

On 20/08/2022 at 13:01, Rich Rule said:

How to keep going after 30?

 

Man up and crack on.  
 

There are so many people who simply cannot handle the physical and mental demands for this industry.  They quit after a few years with some excuse or another:  I doubt there is a long term climber out there who hasn't had a serious issue in their career.  The difference between them and the short term’ers - they don’t quit when it gets tough.  That is the bloody mindedness you need to excel in arb.  It is also the same attitude that gets you through the difficult jobs.

 

Too many people out there looking for a easy life IMO. 
 

Classic example of someone who cannot hack it, was the fool who wrote the article that was published by the AA.  The thread about freelancers being parasites.

 

If it is so called career progression?  I can’t think of anything worse than surveying for a utility company.

Thanks for commenting Rich. My point wasn't to suggest that 30 is an age to stop. It was that if at that point a climber starts to plan ahead then they'll be prepared and able to go on to something they want to do when the time comes. We are often asked to find surveying roles by climbers who want to come off the tools. This is the reason for the post really. We're looking to start conversations and help people to work towards technical roles by having the right knowledge about what qualification/experience is needed for the roles they want. I have read the AA published article you mention and can completely understand the upset it caused. The emotive language alone is shocking. I think it's a real shame to see such division an industry made up by skilled and hardworking people and I am still struggling to understand it. I'll stop now as I've lots more to answer on this thread but I hope this helps you see where I'm coming from. Kate

On 20/08/2022 at 22:56, Dan Maynard said:

Obviously I wouldn't ask a lady her age but I'm wondering how old KateH is that she thinks 30 is old. 

Hi Dan, ask away😊. I turned 50 last month and am very happy about it (the alternative being a bit rubbish). My point in the article isn't to get off the tools in your 30s but to start thinking ahead then and work out what the next step might be before it happens. There are jobs in the arb industry that will take people all the way to retirement but many of them take a little work in advance so it's worth thinking about in your 30s. As recruiters we just want people to have the option they want available to them. Climbers have often decades or amazing tree experience but might need a qualification or two to continue to use that experience from the ground. Cheers, Kate