Svts

In a way your right. But the bigger picture is that the training industry isn't serving actual tree work industry very well. The number of trained lads I've given a go in the last 10 years that didn't last a year before jacking it in stands testimont to it. Pretty much all of them had spent many thousands of pounds with various trainers but still struggled with very basic things and struggled to cope with the physical demands. One or two still had a fear of heights ffs. The two rope thing is a silly distraction imo.

I won't name names but I've been on a few very poorly delivered courses. One particular refresher delivered by a pretty prominent member of the training establishment comes to mind. Everybody came out wondering why they'd bothered. Chap deliveried it parrot fashion all while being massively distracted by a new facet of his business he was setting up. To the extent that the one new lad on the course was tutored by a couple of the old hands in a few things he couldn't grasp. I had had previous training from this guy years before. He was very good then. But that was while he was employed by a college, before he set up his own outfit, and the training didn't come second to the £sss. Not total crap, volume of bums on seats pays the bills. There are some cracking trainers out there for sure. But there are a few shockers too.

Spot on. Time for the aa to pull their weight maybe.

Indeed it is an industry created training problem. When the owners of training companies are involved in setting out best practice and course content there will always be a conflict of interests. If the shortcourse route into the industry wasn't so easily available lot of these training businesses would be unviable. Yes there are a fewowner operated arb firms that treat rescue seriously. However most of the large compliance heavy contracts nowadays only go to the lowest price. In my experience this increases pressure to drive down costs. Lesser skilled ops on poor rates is a easy way to achieve this. All backed up by lots of paperwork and crap training to cover thier asses . This is just from personal observation over the years.

Indeed! No disrespect to anyone but should a lad like this be put in charge of aerial rescue after a week of this? Surely for it to be anymore than tick box compliance the rescue element should be left for a tried and tested climber? Best practice my arse!

By all means sounds interesting. Moving onto better ground now so fingers crossed that's the last of the mud for a bit.

That all makes perfect sense. The trouble is having a huge range of machinery means having to generate a huge turnover to keep it all rolling on. I've gone down that route in the past but don't want to do it again. Missed a fair bit of the kids growing up as was always at work. So a middle of the road agri type setup seems to be a happy medium. No eye-watering repayments to keep up with but a living to be made. If I could find enough work to keep a small machine going I would deffo look into it.

Thanks for an honest reply. I'll have to stick with the tried and tested I think. I can't seem to find these niche jobs that demand dayrate very often (unfortunately). Usually piece rate take it or leave it is the way it goes.

Ummm.

Just get over there! Turns out my wife has a long list sister in North California. After a few years of saving she surprised me with plane tickets. I'm not known for getting over excited about this sort of thing, but it blew me away. Always wanted to take a gander after reading Mr Beraneks books many years ago. But nothing prepares you for the scale of those Coast Redwoods. Work over here. got a little bit duller after that trip for sure! 20190214_125021.mp4

Will try and massage you. Sorry for late reply, just seen your reply.

The lads I know that jumped from tree work into irata, then working there way up through the ranks. To eventually get on the oil rigs etc, used to say otherwise. Aside from the obvious similarity of a cockup possibly resulting in a fall. But there you go, you know what they say about opinions.

Yes they do use two ropes. However unlike arb work they are also subject to a rigourously enforced system of control. Various levels depending on hours and work logged are subject to strict supervision. Rope systems are set up and monitored ed by higher level ops. Not a few days course covering basics then let loose to get out of your depth and hurt yourself. Comeplety different ball game from my experience.

Hope the aa chap is taking this all in. Just maybe this daft 2 rope will be a catalyst the industry needs. Or will the aa just ignore the real issues and let the big boys carry on with the shambolic box ticking compliance, ensuring they can tender silly prices and keep the industry on its knees.

Sorry 8f I was a bit blunt last night. Was trying to make room for this years batch of Sloe/Bramble Gin so maybe a tad unrestrained. I have rambled through the draft icop now. I realise it needs to be comprehensive ect. But I doubt anyone besides the compliance people of large aa approved,local authority type outfits pay much heed to the bulk of it. After subbing to the odd large aa approved outfit over the years, I find almost without exception the lads doing the actual work largely ignore this stuff. Preferring to sign the bit of paper then crackon in their own way. If they're on the books the pay is usually dismal so they just want to get finished and hide somewhere. If they are subbed in they are usually on a tight price so need to push on to make it work. The smaller owner operated outfits usually make an effort, if the man running the show is a decent sort. The rest just don't give a toss and generally operate by the seat of their pants. This is the reality and no amount of well intentioned bumph will change it. Some people tend to be careless and occasionally hurt themselves. Some people are a bit sharper and save themselves a lot of bother. From my observations it has always been thus. The stats bear this out as they reach a base line then plateau as engineered controls reach their limit. Human error eventually comes into play. As I said last night, writing yet more comprehensive rules won't change this. Could training and candidate selection help with the human factor? If some of the woefully trained people I've come across in the last 10 years are anything to go by I think so. The aa need to step up and bring about a few radical changes if they want to retain creditability (outside of their bubble of "approved" contractors) in my humble opinion. I'll watch with interest!

Then why don't the AA (the arb industries representing body) suggest a root and branch restructuring of the training industry. So the industry isn't awash with such a lot of low skilled workers. Who from my personal experience are are a danger to themselves and those around them. Rather than trying to enforce a system from another industry that is comeplety unsuited to arb. But as usual they roll over. A few well paid individuals get to produce some more bumph. And no meaningful increase in safety is achieved. To think 25 years ago I was all for certs and formal training. If only I knew then what it would morph into!

Wot no huge training industry making good money while passing poor ill equipped climbers and cutters into the industry! Just working people looking after themselves. Then passing on their hard earned skills and knowledge to youngsters that had passed the entrance test of a few years graft at the shitty end ?

Thanks. Too many snouts in the trough nowadays. I know one old trainer who has my upmost respect but have come across many more that fall very short. Filling your day with four to six trainees paying £160 and upwards each is where the easy moneys at. I won't hold my breath waiting for any meaningful change!

Oddly got a mate who is moving to Argentina partly to do the same. Another top notch climber disappearing!

I heartily concur. However most of the larger fisa affiliated outfits don't see it that way ?

Haha for sure! I've largely gone back to full time forestry now. Still do the odd arb job if it's interesting enough. Find most arb a bit dull these days tbh.

Training and assement need go change drastically if AA and the hse are really serious about improving things. I've lost count of the number of fully certified climbers I've worked with that lack basic skills and knowledge. Passing the rigging ticket after a few months of brash dragging for a utility company shouldn't happen, but it does (a lot from what I've seen). Really poor tree ident leading to no knowledge of timbers strengths and weaknesses. No apparent time restrictions on tests allowing very poor candidates to pass aerial rescue cert. They are then often left in charge of the most time critical climb anyone will ever be asked to do. These are just a few of the issues that directly stem from the inbuilt faults within the arb training industry. The Nptc is just a money making machine. Administered by the same people that make a nice living from continuously churning people out in the shortest time possible. The two rope issue is such a silly distraction from the real problems that the AA should be addressing with the hse. Frankly I wonder if the AA is fit for purpose as it stands. I for one will still only use two anchors if the tree dictates it. Managed 25 plus years without cutting my line or breaking an anchor point out, sure I'll manage a few more. The situation is a joke. Proper education/training is the cornerstone the industry needs, Not more rules to protect the hopeless climbers pumped out by the current training system. Apologies for going on but it's become frustrating to see the industry ruined from within.

How do you get away with that nowadays. I keep getting told its way too dangerous!

This sounds more like it. We've just finished cutting very neglected Ash coppice. Started thinning last year as very little dieback was present. 12 months on it was hammered by it. So plans changed to opening up small clear fells in some badly affected areas. Leaving the (luckily numerous) mature Oak. These will be restocked with Oak. Some stools are six to eight feet across. The regrowth on last years cut was already showing dieback. Some large Ash are being retained for habitat. Will be very surprised if anywhere near 40% survives. Pretty much all the Hazel regrowth is grazed to nothing by the deer. Very interesting thread btw.

Is Ash any good to you?