arb culture

Are you sure about that?

As it happens I wondered the same thing about 2 years ago, so I've just completed some in depth research into this issue. The numbers of injuries from falling trees and branches are tiny - the DARM research suggests about 55 a year, and my research came up with a similar result for the numbers of people admitted to hospital from such injuries. Generally a tree is much more likely to hurt someone by poking them in the eye than by dropping something on them. And older people and young children are more likely to be injured when a tree does drop something (perhaps because they can't get out of the way quick enough). In addition, in the vast majority of cases the injuries were dealt with at A+E and the patient was sent on their way with no further action required. I don't think the risks are being downplayed, but I do think the roles and responsibilites of duty holders, contractors and consultants are slightly confused. Disappointing in a document which I hoped was intended to clarify these very issues.

I think this is a fair appraisal. If you want to have a quick understanding of this document, concentrate on the case studies at the end. Especially consider case 3 where a gardener is doing most of the surveying work, and it is implied that arb association approved contractors are now fully qualified consultants. Perhaps Paul call tell us - what is the assessment criteria for an approved contractor's ability to assess hazard trees? Case 1 suggests a tree surgeon is now a competent surveyor (anyone remember Poll v Bartholemew?). Be honest, most of us know of several trees surgeons who will condemn trees with the slightest defect, either because they are scared of the liability, or because they are unscrupulous and want some extra work. Also, in all the case studies it states that the duty holder is satisfied that they have done all that is sufficient in each case. Well, that's lovely, and good for them - but what do the NTSG think? The document is generally a step in the right direction, but there are some serious problems with it. Please, please read it and return comments to them.

Hello all, Don't know if anyone is interested, but I got an e-mail today from a lady who does foraging walks in Leeds. I've been on one before where I learnt a few things, and had a nice day out with lovely food at the end of it. Anyway, I've copied her e-mail below... "Hello Everyone! After a looong break, my walks are restarting now for the summer. The next walks will be on Saturday the 19th of June and Sunday the 20th of June from 10am until 1pm. They will be followed by a picnic lunch of foraged wild goodies. At today's walk we had vintage cheddar and Good King Henry quiches and a Swahili style chicken of the woods mushroom coconut curry with mung bean rice, Fruit leathers and home made cordials. As far as things we are likely to see go, the two things at the top of my list are wild garlic and chicken of the woods mushrooms. I have been running wild food walks for nearly two years now, taught in excess of 250 people, have been featured in the Leeds Guide in the articles "How To Be More Green" and "Food For Free Foraging Walks". I was also on the 4th episode of "The Edible Garden" with Alys fowler on the BBC. These walks are a lovely day out (if I do say so myself) and Spring is an awesome time to go on one due to the sheer abundance of food out there. I will be covering a variety of wild fungi and edible greens as well as teaching you how to identify fungi in a systematic manner to make it as safe as possible. For those of you who have come on these walks before, there are a few changes this year. The walks now cost £15 per person, with a £3 discount for students on showing a valid NUS card (so £12 per person). I am also offerring a new deal where, if you buy blocks of three walks, you get a voucher for a fourth walk for free which you can either use yourself, or pass on to someone else so that they can give it a go too!* I decided to do this after seeing quite a lot of faces reappearing at the walks in different seasons. As these people realised, the kinds of plants available at different times of the year can vary hugely, and everytime they come, they learn something new. This gives you the perfect opportunity to come along to walks in all seasons, and truly learn what the green spaces of Leeds have to offer. Walks of this type and length normally cost in excess of £40 per person but I do mine for just £15 (£12 for students) so that more people can afford them and join in the fun! I also do wild food walks on demand for groups and for these, I can come to your local area and show you what you can eat on your own doorstep. These walks make lovely presents and cost the same as my usual walks. (subject to minimum attendance). I also teach courses on preserving and show people how to make fruit leathers, jams, syrups, cordials, fruit cheeses, fruit vinegars and other preserves. All the profits I make on these walks and the courses that I do goes to fund the charity work we do in Kenya. It will either be used to pay the teacher's salaries, rent on the school house, food for the children or other running costs. Please feel free to email me if you require any more information. If you want to confirm a place on the walk, email me back with the number of spaces you would like, which walk you would like to book for, and your contact telephone number in case of emergencies. I will then email you to confirm your spaces and will give you our meeting point. Regards, Mina"

Gets my vote - I like the bible references you keep bringing up - very interesting. To get slightly back on thread though. Kerb edges are notoriously difficult to get right within the RPA. Highways departments are often averse to anything new, and they commonly demand that all adopted roads (and edges) be constructed using the tried and tested techniques they are familiar with. So any kind of 'no dig' technique is often refused, however good it might be. On unadopted roads, minimal dig kerb edges within the RPA are usually based on pinned sleepers of one kind or another. Examples of method statements can be found online with a bit of searching.

I'd be absolutely delighted to do some work experience exchange. I've got loads of arb quals/experience and I really want to learn more about the ecology side of things. PM me and perhaps we can come with something mutually beneficial. I'm based in West Yorkshire.

Chris, where are you based?

What do you have to hide? Just show us a worked example - why is that so bloomin hard?

Is anyone prepared to give us a worked example of a QTRA for discussion?

Sorry if this has already been posted. But I thought some people might be interested... Use of chain flail/non standard accessories on brush cutters

Be careful! If you are advising this person as a professional, then you need to make sure you know what you are talking about, and ideally you should have the PI insurance to cover you if it goes wrong. If it turns out that the trees are not imminently dangerous, the implications could be quite serious for you and your client. Don't forget the number of times professional arbs go out to see a tree which has been described as dangerous by a lay person, only to find there's just a bit of deadwood, or it's just a leaning tree etc. In answer to one of your questions - No, the national park cannot stop you from felling dangerous trees, but neither can a local authority. The only people who can do that are the courts. However, LPAs can and will prosecute you for felling a dangerous tree if it turns out after the event that the tree wasn't actually dangerous.

It sounds like the information from the National Park is nearly right. Dangerous trees can be felled without making an application, but the duty of evidence is with the defendent to prove that on the balance of probability that the trees were dangerous. So records such as photos will need to be kept. Alternatively an application can be made to fell the trees because they are dangerous. This will need one written report from one professional to validate the application. The LPA may then ask for frther information (eg picus assessment) but they can't demand it. If the local authority refuse permission you can then appeal to the planning inspectorate. The whole process often takes over a year. If the trees are located on a work site and you have done a risk assessment that shows they should be removed, then contact HSE. They will not want to advise you, but be annoying and persist.

Hama, Stick with it. When I first started my degree I was in a similar position. The first year was awful - I couldn't stand all the silly rules about how to write in a particular way or how to reference properly, it drove me nuts. The way I tackled it was to think of it the same way as any other training, it's just something you have to do to pass the ticket. It's a bit like learning to sharpen a saw - bloomin tedious but worth it, because once you can sharpen a saw you can move on to the fun part of learning to use one. So, once you've got the silly academic rules worked out, the rest is loads easier, and so much more fun.

Please don't put anything in writing for this guy - it sounds like he is trying to stitch you up with some huge liability issues! Black poplars at 10m from a house - of course he's bloomin concerned about heave. My advice - get someone in with the proper insurance and experience to write his report for him.

I'm trying to remember the scientific research that backs up the 12 times stem diameter root protection area in BS5837:2005. For some reason, I can't seem to find it. Just wondered if anyone knew what science it was based on?

Very well put Marcus. Back to the original question though. There are equations for working out changes in bulk density at depth from a change in surface pressure, but they are very complicated and beyong the ken of most arbs (including me at the moment): http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=4&ved=0CBUQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgeo.verruijt.net%2Fsoftware%2FSoilMechBook.pdf&rct=j&q=soil+mechanics&ei=hVOnS8LwDIj40wSL7dTVAQ&usg=AFQjCNGnrxfzeigsS6XIGt7WMLNY-tUn3w Try looking at chapter 40 on page 227. If it's really important you could try asking an architect or a soil engineer.

Oh, and whilst I think about it... Anyone want to try and quantify the risks from this one?

Over a petrol station too, that could be quite nasty.

I've tried distance learning, full time education and day release. Motivating yourself for distance learning is really hard - I didn't manage it and didn't complete the course. Full time is obviously the best for motivation and for interacting with other students (and teachers), but day release was better than I imagined it would be. There was good discussion at seminars, and you can keep in touch with other students quite easily. I found the PD and the BSc route to be similar in the amount of theory to practical application, but I was very concerned by some of the things in the PD syllabus. Some very incorrect science in there the last time I looked, and I'm not sure they include any stats or mathematical analysis (but I may be wrong). At the moment I'd rather employ someone with a relevent BSc than a PD because of this. Also, a BSc is far more widely recognised outside our little arb world.

Try: AIE - Subject - Case Law Index This is an excellent resource for getting started on case law. But please be aware that very few (if any) of these cases set a precedent. However, they give a good insight into the general way of thinking by the courts. The most recent edition of the Arb Journal also has a very good summary of legislation and case law in relation to hazardous trees.

That was my understanding as well.

Thanks to Marcus reminding me about the downloads on Julian Forbes Laird's website, I had a quick look to see if there was anything new on there. Being a bit of a case law geek I was pleased to find some case law that I've not read before: http://www.flac.uk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Corker-v-Wilson.pdf It seems like its another case telling duty holders not to over-react about dangerous trees.

Cheaper insurance from some insurers. Discounts from some suppliers.

Oh, and just in case anyone thinks I don't know what I'm talking about; I have read all the literature which is usually quoted, know a lot of people who have done the training, and have seen several copies of the the literature bundle given to people who go on the training. I have also seen many many QTRA reports, but I won't comment on them without the author's express permission. That would just be rude, even if they are in the public domain. Honestly, I promise you, I'm not new to this.

Just give me a worked example and let me show you what I mean.