Trading Standards

[Justme]

I plainly missed those so still need convincing that one can deliver own goods in a vehicle whose gross train weight exceeds 3.5 tonne without a tachograph.

 

As far as I can see the only recent changes to legislation you may be referring to is the removal of the exemption for an operator's licence for a trailer less than 1020kg unladen weight when carrying goods for hire or reward. The exemption from operator's licence remains for most of us delivering our own goods with such a trailer.

 

An exemption from requiring a tachograph to be fitted is a different issue.

 

 

 

Well it seemed fairly clear to me, though IANAL people I work with do rely on me for advice on transport related issues, including a recent case I took before the traffic commissioner in the face of opposition from the highways authority, regarding our operating centre, he ruled in our favour.

 

In fact the text accompanying that particular document says:

 

"This form is used at the time of a vehicle test if a HGV does not have a calibrated tachograph fitted and the presenter wants to declare it exempt."

 

but granted it may influence a policeman at a roadside check.

 

So my view remains in the unlikely event you are stopped at a roadside checkpoint whilst delivering logs with a trailer and you are not overloaded or breaking other traffic laws:

 

You do not need an operators licence if the towing vehicle is less than 3.5 tonnes MAM AND the trailer has an unladen weight of less than 1020kg and a MAM of 3500kg AND the logs are your own goods.

 

You do require a tachograph unless the work is agricultural or forestry enterprise.

 

You probably don't require the CPC on top of your B+E licence.

 

I dont think I have made any mention of recent changes to the tacho laws?

 

The recent changes to the O licence laws do encompass more people as the 3500kg weight now includes the trailer. There are however LOTS of exemptions re the O licence rules.

 

Its your call if you want to look for the many post on this or not. Horse to water & all that.

 

Pity HMRC dont agree with you. In there eyes once its cut into logs your acting as a timber merchant.

 

BIM66655 - Timber merchants: owner occupation of woodlands

 

I read that to say once its prepared for sawmilling its a taxable activity. Just because its taxable does not make it non forestry. A timber harvester driver is forestry but his profits will be taxable. It just (in simple terms) ownership & profit from that re sale of the forest or unprocessed product of a forest that is non taxable. It is not saying what is or is not forestry.

 

You would also have to look at the deminimis rules as a small amount of processing is still allowed if it is needed to make the product marketable.

[teepeeat]

Like I said had it from the guys mouth if I get caught with split logs in a trailer and no tacho I would be charged, unless they send me an email response contrary I'll continue to use my tacho.

 

Who is this 'guy' you speak of? Just an individual who might have miss understood the regs - certainly not unknown of around here for officials to jump up and down full of their own importance until you produce the actual regs for them to read??

Sometimes its a power trip sometimes an honest mis-interpretation.

I dont know the regs on this issue, just a thought.

[Logsnstuff]

Who is this 'guy' you speak of? Just an individual who might have miss understood the regs - certainly not unknown of around here for officials to jump up and down full of their own importance until you produce the actual regs for them to read??

Sometimes its a power trip sometimes an honest mis-interpretation.

I dont know the regs on this issue, just a thought.

 

It was one of the inspector people at Vosa while I was being charged for overloading he told us some of the things to be careful of to avoid any further issues.

[County 764]

I was speaking to someone recently who went to the vosa or dvla office in Dundee (can't remember which), anyway they were wanting to change the documentation on a HGV and were told that said change could not be made. Knowing otherwise they stood their ground and finally it was agreed between other staff members (probably with access to a PC) that he was correct.

Will ask the guy what the changes were next time I see him. But another example of those who should know the rules but didn't.

[County 764]

Email response from trading standards below.

 

 

 

You can tell the customer the nominal size of the bags but as soon as you make reference to cubic metres the transaction is caught by the Weights and Measures Act 1985 and suitable equipment needs to be used to measure the goods.

 

Firewood can be sold by weight, I understand what you say about moisture content but as long as the logs weigh the declared weight when the transaction takes place, there is a defence in the Act of subsequent deficiency where it is a natural product which will change over time.

 

Once again suitable equipment would need to be used to weigh the goods which would be scales approved and verified for use for trade.

 

You could say ‘loose hardwood or softwood logs in a bag which has the nominal measurements of approx. 100cm x 100cm x 100cm’

 

 

 

Do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further advice.

 

 

 

Kind regards

[briquette_seller]

Surprised they used the word "approx"

 

I was told by trading standards, a few years ago now, that there was no such thing as an approximate weight.

 

At least its in black and white, should weights and measures ever come through the gate.

[elder]

Campmuir logs are in the boat now too. Can't specify our pick up load at 2cube or 4 cube load now has to be referred to as a half load or full load with a pic of each on the web site. Funny how its the traders that are being looked at closely and not the Gumtree fly by nights.

[Mike Dempsey]

Thats easy - the proper firewood merchants will comply with the regulations, the cowboys wont and it would be too much of a battle to get them to comply with the regs!

[Tom D]

Campmuir logs are in the boat now too. Can't specify our pick up load at 2cube or 4 cube load now has to be referred to as a half load or full load with a pic of each on the web site. Funny how its the traders that are being looked at closely and not the Gumtree fly by nights.

 

Hang on a minute, they are stopping you from displaying the logs by a quantifiable volume and asking you to do it by the load instead? Thats crazy!

[Logsnstuff]

The email response we got also.

 

 

A project is being carried out by this service to look into the manner of sale of firewood, you have not been singled out. The project was initiated by the fact that the number of firewood suppliers has increased greatly in recent years and there seemed to be a lack of understanding as to what the legal position is when selling firewood.

 

You can tell your customers the dimensions of the bags you use e.g. 100cm x 100cm x 100cm but as soon as you refer to cubic volumes or weights the transaction is caught by the Weights and Measures Act 1985 and you will be required to use suitable equipment to measure the volume or weight of the goods, suitable equipment would be equipment which has been approved and verified for use for trade.

 

Where sellers are selling firewood by the load these transactions are not caught by the above legislation as no weight or volume is declared and it is up to the customer to decide if the price is value for money. I know it goes against what you would think but not declaring a weight or volume is the easiest and most straight forward option for the seller.

 

 

 

Do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further advice or information.

 

 

 

Kind regards