H&S Standards Arb

[Arbocop]

To quote Andy

 

Ohh soap box moment

 

i think what is worse than poorly constructed documents is when a lot of people put a lot of effort in to somthing and then have it quoted completly out of context and then have people jump all over it and use it as a hammer to beat them with.

 

so first off dean well done for finding that document on the web sire it is quite well berried. alas you showed it out of context and this has led to a little confusion i think.

 

question any one remember what was happening in 2002/3/4???

 

a little matter of the likes of AXA stopping new insurance policies, massivly loading polices and refusing to re insure???

 

an industry in chaose??? because it was give up or work uninsure some even becam land scapers and never climbed a tree higer then 10m yehh right, all this because we as an industry one man through to 200 men wer kill injuring moor people than any other trade inc construction, and were having so much gear nicked that we were bancrupting insurers

 

remember those times ??? i do! i rember the premium too.

 

so up goes the cry lead bodies/trade bodies what are you doing??????

 

well the document you have seen is one of many that were jointly released to the councils insureres under righters the pres in deed any one that would listen...

 

they took a lot of work that lots of people gave there time up to do FOC..... and led to an agree ment about auditing companies, because im sorry to say the evidence showed that they were not keeping up to speed on many aspects and were costing billions of pounds.

 

the doc you have seen formed tha basis of an agree ment with the insureres and a company called Hatton Hanson Assosiates took up the challange of doing the audits the two runners of that both ran tree surgury companies, one a big company in the middle of the country anouth a humble company in scotland.

 

they employed an army of assessors who where trained and experianced every one of them a qualified arborit with experiance of running thier own company and every one of them volenteered time to the project FOC, and yes they did get payed when they did lieve audits but not for training standard setting advice etc etc they did it as the ycould see an industyr they loved spiraling in to the void.

 

so for about 18 month the vast majority of insurance but not all was dependant on a sucsessfull audit most by HHa but some others were doing it to. some improved guidance cam out and a bigger push in term od shad days specific to arb cam out of this joint approach.

 

the joint party were not afag they were peole speciffically who came to the cry of the trees and timber industry in a time of need.

 

well 18 months or so on accident were down well claims any way, conformity was better, people were being more secure with their people and there kit and insurace started to become more redily availible again.

 

and when i read unconsidered, incorrect out of contexed pre concived trite crud like this

 

'OR, the fact that the listed constituent members of the "Joint Industry Working Party" (or AFAG as it is more widely known these days) is mostly made up of directors/senior managers/stock holders etc, of some VERY big corporate entities, so therefore exhibits an ENORMOUS amount of "conflict of interests".

 

 

 

In all reality, It's just another indication of how far behind the times and out of touch with the industry certain organisations are, and also yet another reminder of exactly how little these bodies do in order to accurately regulate and represent the industry as a whole. '

 

it really makes my blood boil.

 

arboriculture is moor than just the swinging round in trees it is everything i mean every thing, health and safty managment cutting the trees pandd the whole lot and the effort that whent in to saving an industyr by the peole be barracked hear without consideration is alas a sad reflection on the insular way in witch many peole view there own tiny bit of the industry. trees and timber is moor than just our folks cutting the power lines or deans tree removeal, than dr persivals plant resurch or shigos mantra touch trees its all of it.

 

and well its about time peolpe with axes to grind about any body or organisation be it the isa lantra nptc labour govenment defra who ever realised that just because what they do does not fit in with their part of a wider industre it does not mean that they are wrong usless out of touch or any other of those things it just means they are addressing differant issues.

 

why does this make me cross well i gave up hours and hour of my time during that crisis foc and well enough said.

 

so i emplore all of you who read and translate this before you get hold of somthing and use it as a bashing tool think, find out the afcts and then act.

 

orsen wells said it best it is better to say nothing and let people think you a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

 

your

 

cross

 

ranting

 

going for a beer

 

kev

[Arbocop]

ok breathing now

 

health and safty is led from the top down is a mixture of controlls sytems and behaviour then proving mesuring reviwing htoose things, it is in many ways a dodel the hard bit is working out what bits are a dodled .......

 

dean i actuelly think you would be better looking at this

 

http://www.trees.org.uk/downloads/aaactcs.pdf

 

slightley calmer now

 

breathing normally

 

kev

[Dean Lofthouse]

Cheers for that Kev, very informative mate..

 

I have been given a simple check list of the most immediate things to comply with by the college H&S assessor. What I'm going to do is make sure I get sorted with them and then he'll come back and assess and probably give me another list.

 

They have said not to panic, they are here to work with me not against and are trying not to overload me with info.

 

I think it is me that has seen what I have to comply with and made it sound more complicated than it really is.

[Arbocop]

to put a tree anerergy on it the first time you were ever shown how to tie a climbing system 99% of people say ok just show me that agin then ill get it

 

dealing with h n s is just the same

 

ask

 

and mate if you have bits you are embarresed to ask PM me and ill try and give the simplest answer i can

 

cheers

 

kev

[Khriss]

Good one Kev- yea HSE is 'quite' an organisation- In our exceptionally complex trade ( which we hardly get commensurate pay rates for what we actually do ) I have yet to see a coherent Safety policy document appear that is implemented -fully- on a job site. I think most of this stuff is a money maker for one department or another. Frankly -Idont give a **** which trousers or what technique is used-cos safety an good practise starts in that bit between yr ear-defenders.......

 

 

K

 

( Yr head -Paul ! I wasnt being Zen )

[Mozza]

Sort the college side of it out mate, Make sure that guys happy. Dont want to let it get in the way of your lads tuition!

 

 

 

The rest of it is all bollocks though i reckon, I hate the HSE its just gone too far now, This country's going worse and worse with the can and cant do's, its a joke, Im a big believer in, you do what you do and if it bites you in the ass its your own fault, end of!

[TimberCutterDartmoor]

Sort the college side of it out mate, Make sure that guys happy. Dont want to let it get in the way of your lads tuition!

 

 

 

The rest of it is all bollocks though i reckon, I hate the HSE its just gone too far now, This country's going worse and worse with the can and cant do's, its a joke, Im a big believer in, you do what you do and if it bites you in the ass its your own fault, end of!

 

Ditto.

[skyhuck]

To quote Andy

 

Ohh soap box moment

 

i think what is worse than poorly constructed documents is when a lot of people put a lot of effort in to somthing and then have it quoted completly out of context and then have people jump all over it and use it as a hammer to beat them with.

 

so first off dean well done for finding that document on the web sire it is quite well berried. alas you showed it out of context and this has led to a little confusion i think.

 

question any one remember what was happening in 2002/3/4???

 

a little matter of the likes of AXA stopping new insurance policies, massivly loading polices and refusing to re insure???

 

an industry in chaose??? because it was give up or work uninsure some even becam land scapers and never climbed a tree higer then 10m yehh right, all this because we as an industry one man through to 200 men wer kill injuring moor people than any other trade inc construction, and were having so much gear nicked that we were bancrupting insurers

 

remember those times ??? i do! i rember the premium too.

 

so up goes the cry lead bodies/trade bodies what are you doing??????

 

well the document you have seen is one of many that were jointly released to the councils insureres under righters the pres in deed any one that would listen...

 

they took a lot of work that lots of people gave there time up to do FOC..... and led to an agree ment about auditing companies, because im sorry to say the evidence showed that they were not keeping up to speed on many aspects and were costing billions of pounds.

 

the doc you have seen formed tha basis of an agree ment with the insureres and a company called Hatton Hanson Assosiates took up the challange of doing the audits the two runners of that both ran tree surgury companies, one a big company in the middle of the country anouth a humble company in scotland.

 

they employed an army of assessors who where trained and experianced every one of them a qualified arborit with experiance of running thier own company and every one of them volenteered time to the project FOC, and yes they did get payed when they did lieve audits but not for training standard setting advice etc etc they did it as the ycould see an industyr they loved spiraling in to the void.

 

so for about 18 month the vast majority of insurance but not all was dependant on a sucsessfull audit most by HHa but some others were doing it to. some improved guidance cam out and a bigger push in term od shad days specific to arb cam out of this joint approach.

 

the joint party were not afag they were peole speciffically who came to the cry of the trees and timber industry in a time of need.

 

well 18 months or so on accident were down well claims any way, conformity was better, people were being more secure with their people and there kit and insurace started to become more redily availible again.

 

and when i read unconsidered, incorrect out of contexed pre concived trite crud like this

 

'OR, the fact that the listed constituent members of the "Joint Industry Working Party" (or AFAG as it is more widely known these days) is mostly made up of directors/senior managers/stock holders etc, of some VERY big corporate entities, so therefore exhibits an ENORMOUS amount of "conflict of interests".

 

 

 

In all reality, It's just another indication of how far behind the times and out of touch with the industry certain organisations are, and also yet another reminder of exactly how little these bodies do in order to accurately regulate and represent the industry as a whole. '

 

it really makes my blood boil.

 

arboriculture is moor than just the swinging round in trees it is everything i mean every thing, health and safty managment cutting the trees pandd the whole lot and the effort that whent in to saving an industyr by the peole be barracked hear without consideration is alas a sad reflection on the insular way in witch many peole view there own tiny bit of the industry. trees and timber is moor than just our folks cutting the power lines or deans tree removeal, than dr persivals plant resurch or shigos mantra touch trees its all of it.

 

and well its about time peolpe with axes to grind about any body or organisation be it the isa lantra nptc labour govenment defra who ever realised that just because what they do does not fit in with their part of a wider industre it does not mean that they are wrong usless out of touch or any other of those things it just means they are addressing differant issues.

 

why does this make me cross well i gave up hours and hour of my time during that crisis foc and well enough said.

 

so i emplore all of you who read and translate this before you get hold of somthing and use it as a bashing tool think, find out the afcts and then act.

 

orsen wells said it best it is better to say nothing and let people think you a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt

 

your

 

cross

 

ranting

 

going for a beer

 

kev

 

This is not the first time you have told us all how the AA saved us all from extortionate insurance costs.

 

I traded through that period, and do not believe the AA made any difference what so ever.

 

I have NEVER been offered an audit to reduce my premiums.

[Arbocop]

Hi Sky

 

i think the last time i had a rant it was about top handled saws ?

 

and i also whent to pains to explain that the AA was a mouth peice for several organisations in both the saw and insurance areas not the soul saviour and also the efforts of individuals cannot be discounted.

 

but i think you rather miss the point of the post, the point was moor about giving due consideration, befor having a go, and realisig that the industry is bigger than all of us and just because sections of it do not excite us/interest us/ directly affect us we should not discount them or knock them

 

the whole is greater than the sum of its parts

 

kev

[Andy Clark]

Blimey... Well, i'm not even going to begin trying to step up to the plate with that one Kev.

 

It's fairly obvious from the length of the post, that it's a subject you feel very... erm... "passionate" about, and I for one commend that.

 

(Ahem)...HOWEVER.... We've all been there, and all done it. Some perhaps from different perspectives than others, which therefore gives very different views (and ultimately OPINIONS) as to what goes on behind the scenes.

 

For example, you mention the AXA/insurance issues back in the early 00's.... yes, agreed, the AA (amongst others) were seen to do their bit to work towards resolving the situation....

 

BUT... at the same time, was there not also an EX AA CHAIRMAN, pushing HIS OWN arb insurance company, by which in order to attain cover YOU HAD to become an accredited member (by meeting a criteria very similar to that of the AAAC), PLUS pay an annual membership fee, PLUS be annually audited?

 

 

And take examples of more recent years.... NHSS18 for example!!

 

In the numerous meetings at Stonely as part of the consultation process, did the Arb related members of the consultation committee under the guise of representing the AA , not push that AAAC members should be automatically accredited as NHSS 18 compliant?

 

Plus, lets not forget that those Arb related members, are again, senior directors of contracting companies that the Highways Agency already uses.

 

(I'll send you a copy of Jonathan Hazells e-mail reply on the subject... Makes VERY interesting reading)

Therefore...... A) Why is the highways agency using its own contractors, to assist in writing its contractor criteria??

 

and B) Why were the AA pushing for auto-accreditation, based on it's own AAAC criteria?

 

 

 

So my claims of "conflict of interest" is Tripe eh?? Erm, think i'll leave that one for the jury to decide.

 

 

 

(P.s... It's a shame we never actually met when i used to run the old OCA panel of contractors..... remind me to send you a copy of the updated membership criteria. You'll love it )