subcontracting to the same company

[Rupe]

No I'm not rupe, my EL covers anyone working for me/contract climbing or what ever you want to describe it as if they injur themselves at work on my job does it not. The P/L covers anyone or anything not working for me E.G member of public gets a branch dropped on them?? Or stump grinder chucks a stone through a window.

 

Yes, thats correct. But when we talk about subbies/self employed having their own insurance we mean their own PL. They dont need it because the person they work for has PL that covers the work the subbie does.

 

 

So, where you said the subbie doesnt need insurance as the company should have EL this is incorrect. The companies EL does not replace the indivuals PL, its a totally seperate issue.

[AardvarkTreeServices]

Yes, thats correct. But when we talk about subbies/self employed having their own insurance we mean their own PL. They dont need it because the person they work for has PL that covers the work the subbie does.

.

 

Why would you want a claim made against your insurance when a self employed subby should have it? If you've engaged a climber on proper self employed terms then he is responsible and it should be him or his insurance that pays for any damage caused by his negligence.

 

Its a different matter if the climber is an employee because the terms arent really self employed, such as when you control the how and when the work is done.

[Adam Bourne]

Why would you want a claim made against your insurance when a self employed subby should have it? If you've engaged a climber on proper self employed terms then he is responsible and it should be him or his insurance that pays for any damage caused by his negligence.

 

 

 

Its a different matter if the climber is an employee because the terms arent really self employed, such as when you control the how and when the work is done.

 

 

Good luck with that one haha!

 

Most "contract" climbers I know only carry there own personnel health insurance. Huge difference when coming under a freelance!!! climber, which is what most of us are when working under a firms name! Therefore under there insurance.

 

It's very rare I take up an opportunity when asked if someone can do this date to climb said tree. It makes it sound like "yeah I can come and remove that tree or what ever under my own name" I always most certainly just wait to be asked to come and do it personally. There for working for that firm on the said date of there choice (depending on availability) under there method and risk assessments (if in place) and under there insurance.

 

After a long hard discussion with an insurance company I will also never use a vehicle with my own sign writing whilst working for another company again. For the very reason it gives of the message you are working under your own terms not the firm your contracting too.

[Kev Stephenson]

Yes, thats correct. But when we talk about subbies/self employed having their own insurance we mean their own PL. They dont need it because the person they work for has PL that covers the work the subbie does.

 

 

So, where you said the subbie doesnt need insurance as the company should have EL this is incorrect. The companies EL does not replace the indivuals PL, its a totally seperate issue.

 

So lets say I hire you for a days climbing and I (the boss) am on site grounding for you. We have discussed that the whole side of the tree is to be rigged out however you decide that it can be boshed in a oner. It goes wrong and lands on a parked car causing £10k in damage.

 

I contact my insurance company and fill in a statement stating the above also stating that I had employed a suitably qualified sub contract climber for the day. My insurance company I can bet would pay out but would chase you (or your insurance company) for reimbursement as you, a separate company, went against instruction, made your own decision and caused damage.

 

As a sub contract climber you do not legally need PL insurance but if you make a mistake or something you should not have done causes financial loss the insurance company could well come after you for reimbursement.

 

Another example. I employ you with all your kit to include large rigging kit for a massive take down. My company don't usually do massive TD's hence hiring you and your kit. During the take down your kit fails and a 200kg lump destroys my chipper. It was your kit that failed causing damage, you were paid a premium for bringing said kit, it was within LOLER so you were not negligent. Who's insurance pays out?

[Adam Bourne]

So lets say I hire you for a days climbing and I (the boss) am on site grounding for you. We have discussed that the whole side of the tree is to be rigged out however you decide that it can be boshed in a oner. It goes wrong and lands on a parked car causing £10k in damage.

 

 

 

I contact my insurance company and fill in a statement stating the above also stating that I had employed a suitably qualified sub contract climber for the day. My insurance company I can bet would pay out but would chase you (or your insurance company) for reimbursement as you, a separate company, went against instruction, made your own decision and caused damage.

 

 

 

As a sub contract climber you do not legally need PL insurance but if you make a mistake or something you should not have done causes financial loss the insurance company could well come after you for reimbursement.

 

 

 

Another example. I employ you with all your kit to include large rigging kit for a massive take down. My company don't usually do massive TD's hence hiring you and your kit. During the take down your kit fails and a 200kg lump destroys my chipper. It was your kit that failed causing damage, you were paid a premium for bringing said kit, it was within LOLER so you were not negligent. Who's insurance pays out?

 

 

First one IME every decision made on site has to be the safest! And under everyone's approval. If your adamant that it should be rigged then IMO the climber should appreciate your view and do as there instructed. A competent climber would know what's right or wrong!! Regardless of my experience I do what everyone is comfortable with.

 

Let's say for instance if you thought it could be bashed out and the climber thought it should be rigged! Would you stand by his experience and value his thoughts?

 

Second one, if the kit was loler inspected and failed then that leads me to believe that one there was more human error than equipment or two the loler inspector missed something severely wrong or three the equipment had been damaged or compromised after the inspection. A whole different set of circumstance totally which should be investigated appropriately.

 

Either way on both accounts the job is still under your name your business and your insurance regardless.

[skyhuck]

From an insurance and HSE point of view subbies and employees are pretty much the same, it's only really the tax that is different.

[Rich Rule]

Try making things simpler and stop calling hired help, whether ground staff or climber, subbies. They aren't, they are freelance climbers or groundsman.

[hamdogg]

And do you sign into that risk assessment?

 

 

Yes I do

[Rupe]

So that means your on their insurance and yours is not required (and in fact not valid). That was the point I was getting at there.

 

The other point I was making was just that EL does not replace PL but I think that was just a mis understanding, hodge does it have it right.

[Rupe]

Why would you want a claim made against your insurance when a self employed subby should have it? If you've engaged a climber on proper self employed terms then he is responsible and it should be him or his insurance that pays for any damage caused by his negligence.

 

Its a different matter if the climber is an employee because the terms arent really self employed, such as when you control the how and when the work is done.

 

No, sorry, it doesnt work like that. Drop the word subby, it means nothing at best and at worst its misleading.

 

Youve employed a self employed person, they are working for you. Its your choice to hire them and your insurance must cover that. Your self employed person does not need to have insurance, so there is no "should" have it.

 

Any damage caused while on YOUR job is your responsiblity, if the climber is negligent then you are responsible for hiring a negligent person.