RE Verifying Climbing Experience

[daltontrees]

Jules, it all depends on how you run the job. If you get a climber in for a day and provide a ground crew, you are dictating how and when he/she does the job at a macrolevel. The climber controls the groundcrew purely at a microlevel as his/her actions dictate how the job continues at the level of the manual activity itself. The employer will tell the climber when the job is to be done and with who they will be doing it. The climber has no say in the quoting stage nor any financial stake beyond their own fee. The climbing kit and saw are mere tools of the trade. You would need to place the job in its entirety in the hands of the climber to make them a bona fide subcontractor, meaning they have to arrange kit and crew themself.

I was vaguely with you right up to the last sentence, then you introduced an arbirtary definition. I have worked on some mighty complicated contracts in my time, multi-million £ contracts, everything from nuclear missile depots to indoor climbing centres, motorways, office blocks, demolition jobs, housing estates ... and in my experience and in the view of the QSs and REs and lawyers running the jobs it is not as simple as placing the jobs entirely in the hands of a subby for him to be bona fide. He doesn't need to be responsible for the operation in lieu of the contractor, he just needs to be in control of part of it. In control. Using his power tools, his LOLERed kit, his methods (whether written down or not), his directions to other operatives under authority delegated to him by the contractor and so forth.

 

I have no-one to persuade her and no axe to grind. All I am saying is that it is increasingly apparent to me despite everyone's helpful input that the OP would be well advised to err on the safe side to treat his freelance climbers as BFS and ask for their back-to-back insurance.

 

All you old-hands in the industry can make your own mind up, but it is really clear to me that most freelance climbers doing a day for a tree contractor in Britain tomorrow will be de facto BFS, and that a lot of contractors are taking a huge chance through ignorance or otherwise if they aren't insisting on back-to-back sucontractor PL insurance. At least ask your broker at your next renewal. Get it wrong and one day it could give rise to a very ugly situation.

[arbogrunt]

That may be true, but not having them could lead to questions from the insurer it it all goes pear shaped. It's that old chestnut: Tickets don't make quality, but absence of recognised and established industry standard training and certification (NPTC) could leave the employer uninsured and liable to HSE prosecution.

 

It's just my take on it, and I'm not saying having the qual makes for a quality operator, but not having the qual has to leave a bigger unanswered question about quality?

 

totally agree Kevin...I wouldn't look at a climber without tickets (ie CS 38,39)...its just that a lot of employers expect lads to scoot up the tree and turn out high volume, quality tree surgery after a few days training. I don't have CS40...a local council tree officer asked my why. I just sent him some pictures of recent work and said a 2 day pruning course doesn't wash against 20 years of treework experience and Arb qualification. Recommendation is the best route to take here, I wouldn't ever let an unknown climber loose on one of my jobs, grounding is different....

[daltontrees]

Right, I'm trying to watch the telly here but this is irking me.

 

Your insurer is covering you and trusting you to manage things responsibly and professionally. You send a subby up and you are no longer in control. Therefore your insurer is not in control of you. That's why an insurance policy says what it says. The insurer doesn't cover you unless you get back-to-back insurance cover off the subby. That's what a court will see, with hardly a snort of derision for any argument to the contrary.

 

Ignore me if you wish, I'm cautious. Insured, but cautious. I gave up worrying about my insurance responsibilites a long time ago when I trusted my judgement, the advice of my brokers and my experience and decided to be insured as a subby and to make sure my subbys are insured. My caution cost me about £200 extra a year.

 

Now I can sleeep better knowing I have passed on my advice and experience. Make your own minds up. Anyone care to indemnify the OP meantime?

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

totally agree Kevin...I wouldn't look at a climber without tickets (ie CS 38,39)...its just that a lot of employers expect lads to scoot up the tree and turn out high volume, quality tree surgery after a few days training. I don't have CS40...a local council tree officer asked my why. I just sent him some pictures of recent work and said a 2 day pruning course doesn't wash against 20 years of treework experience and Arb qualification. Recommendation is the best route to take here, I wouldn't ever let an unknown climber loose on one of my jobs, grounding is different....

 

Very fair point esp the "recommendation" route! Majority of my work is domestic, I always offer a glance at the tickets folder but frankly, Joe Public doesn't tend to be interested in quals (and as often as not insurance either) It's all about the price so I don't bat an eyelid when they 'go cheap' and end up with a lash.

[treequip]

Treequip can probably explain it better than me but the main issue is the confusion between self employed and sub contractor. Self employment is really only a status for Tax purposes. Being freelance doesn't make somebody a sub-contractor for the purposes of insurance. I worked as self-employed for all my admittedly short time in Arb. In that time, I provided my own tools sometimes, my vehicle sometimes but I was always working under the insurance of the guy whose job it was. The only insurance I had was PL solely for my own jobs and motor insurance for my truck.

 

Well its got proper off topic so here we go

 

There are a couple of bodies and insurance types involved in this so looking from a couple of perspectives

 

Tax.

The Inland Revenue is of the opinion that if you work for the same person, full time you ought to be employed "cards in", IE a PAYE employee

 

Labour only.

The law says that if you provide labour and perhaps some hand tools you are classified as an employee for the day.

 

You work under the direction of the employer or his agent. He tells you what work is to be done and you execute the work, he may take advice on the detail of the execution but otherwise he is in charge of the operation.

 

He has most of the legal obligations to the labour only employee as he does to his regular PAYE employee.

 

Bona Fide Sub Contract

A Bona Fide sub contractor is a contracting company of whatever legal form that has taken on a portion of work from a larger contract

 

He bids for work offered and is awarded a sub contract (a lesser part of the whole contract) by the main contractor. As far as the terms of the contract permit the BFSC is independent of the main contractor and is free to execute the contract as he sees fit. He will provide whatever plant labour and materials are required by the contract.

 

The law regards BFSC as an independent entity to the main contractor with all the legal separation that entails. While there is no legal requirement for anyone to hold public liability insurance it would be unwise to trade as an independent contractor without it. Most insurance policies require their insured to ensure that BFSC companies hold public liability insurance

 

Employers Liability (compulsory) Insurance (ELCI)

Anyone with employees is required by law to hold ELCI insurance to cover them. Anyone providing labour or help is regarded in law as an employee.

[New Boy]

Thanks one and all for your comments

 

Regards

 

New Boy

[daltontrees]

Thanks Treequip. Most helpful.

[aspenarb]

Put them in a tree for half an hour, most on here could tell their worth in five minutes. I have seen a fresh faced kid with all the tickets frozen to the trunk of a tree in 20`.

 

Bob

[Tommy Noddy]

Re; Self employment I believe the Inland Revenue will give you a binding definition of whether what you propose is legal (as regards tax). Having worked on what in hindsite (you are employed on a self employed basis!) were illegal contracts you as employer must question your own motives for keeping someone off the books. If it is to cut costs BE VERY CAREFUL. Insurers won't like it and just because an "employee" has agreed to it means nothing when the excrement starts flying.......... By the way my experience was in farming

[Yorkshireman]

Bits of paper and talk mean nothing, chuck em up a tree, you will soon know if they have got it, it won't take a day, 10 minutes will probably be plenty.

 

 

Exactly what the Man says, interview for a climber includes a practical demo.

 

it wont take long to decide on their ability levels