Good news from VOSA!

[firewood]

Thanks for posting Peter. It seems this is a get out of jail card for me and many others.

 

I take it to mean that aslong as the actual gross weight of the combination does not exceed the gtw on the towing vehicle plate then you are fine.

 

However, if my combination is legal weight( I.e. on or just under 5750 kg) wise is there still an o licence and or tacho requirement and 50km rule.

 

http://www.kinnoirwoodfuel.co.uk

[Peter]

Drivers hours and tacho rules still apply.

 

Tbh if you are only ever towing with the one vehicle I would still downplate the trailer, the way I read the memo if you get pulled they will always weigh the trailer.

 

Its useful for me as I would have to change the weight plate on the trailer every time I changed towing vehicle.

[Treewolf]

What does "dual purpose" mean.

 

I would say my transit tipper is goods vehicle albeit a light one.

 

kwfhomepage

 

 

The term "dual purpose vehicle" originates from Regulation 3(2) of the Road Vehicles (Construction & use) Regulations 1986 [C&U(1986)] which defines (inter alia) a “dual purpose vehicle” as follows:-

 

dual-purpose vehicle

 

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either—

(i) is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or

(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—

(a) the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;

(b) the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must—

(i) be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and

(ii) be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and

© the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.

(See The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986)

 

This is of particular significance to owners/drivers of Landrovers (and other 4x4 pickups etc) since it is the legislation which allows a Landrover to be driven at "normal" (i.e., car) speeds on roads where National Speed Limits apply; if it were not for this definition then these vehicles would be subject to the reduced limits application to light goods vehicles.

 

A point to note about the C&U(1986) definition quoted above is that the distinction is made on unladen weight, which is not the same as kerb weight. Kerb weight is the one quoted by most manufacturers, and which appears on vehicle plates etc. Kerb weights include provision for driver and fuel, and one or two other items.

 

This has resulted in a lot of confusion as far as Landrovers are concerned, since LR now quotes kerb weights in excess of 2040Kg for 110 Station Wagon, Utility Wagon, Double Cab Pick Up, and 130 Double Cab High Cap Pick Up models causing gsome people to believe that these are no longer DPVs and therefore subject to the lower limits.

 

However, the LR kerb weight figures include a 75Kg driver, a 90% full fuel tanks, and all vehicle fluids. If you remove the driver and deduct the appropriate weight of fuel according to the tank size, the result is that even the heaviest of the list above (the DCHCPU with a kerb weight of 2149Kg) comes out with an unladen weight of 2016.625Kg, which is still within the DPV weight limit.

 

The definiton does cause some strange effects though - for example technically an Audi TT is a dual purpose vehicle, since it has full-time 4WD. Try getting a ton of chip into one of them! (Actually it might be fun, as long as it was someone else's car)!

[firewood]

The term "dual purpose vehicle" originates from Regulation 3(2) of the Road Vehicles (Construction & use) Regulations 1986 [C&U(1986)] which defines (inter alia) a dual purpose vehicle as follows:-

 

dual-purpose vehicle

 

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which either

(i) is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or

(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely

(a) the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;

(b) the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must

(i) be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and

(ii) be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and

© the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.

(See The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986)

 

This is of particular significance to owners/drivers of Landrovers (and other 4x4 pickups etc) since it is the legislation which allows a Landrover to be driven at "normal" (i.e., car) speeds on roads where National Speed Limits apply; if it were not for this definition then these vehicles would be subject to the reduced limits application to light goods vehicles.

 

A point to note about the C&U(1986) definition quoted above is that the distinction is made on unladen weight, which is not the same as kerb weight. Kerb weight is the one quoted by most manufacturers, and which appears on vehicle plates etc. Kerb weights include provision for driver and fuel, and one or two other items.

 

This has resulted in a lot of confusion as far as Landrovers are concerned, since LR now quotes kerb weights in excess of 2040Kg for 110 Station Wagon, Utility Wagon, Double Cab Pick Up, and 130 Double Cab High Cap Pick Up models causing gsome people to believe that these are no longer DPVs and therefore subject to the lower limits.

 

However, the LR kerb weight figures include a 75Kg driver, a 90% full fuel tanks, and all vehicle fluids. If you remove the driver and deduct the appropriate weight of fuel according to the tank size, the result is that even the heaviest of the list above (the DCHCPU with a kerb weight of 2149Kg) comes out with an unladen weight of 2016.625Kg, which is still within the DPV weight limit.

 

The definiton does cause some strange effects though - for example technically an Audi TT is a dual purpose vehicle, since it has full-time 4WD. Try getting a ton of chip into one of them! (Actually it might be fun, as long as it was someone else's car)!

 

Exhaustive and definitive answer:thumbup: thanks.

 

So a single cab transit tipper is not dual purpose.

 

So thus far my understanding is i can tow my atlas trailer (unladen weight 990kg) as long as its payload is no more than about 1260kg. Assuming a payload of 1200kg back of truck this would make the whole combination 5750 kg as per the plated gtw on the truck. I could also presumably load the trailer only with 2460kg if the truck was empty.

 

so the question remains does this combination require a tacho and or o licence.

 

http://www.kinnoirwoodfuel.co.uk

[Peter]

Not 100% sure on the legality of loading the trailer to the max with an empty truck, but it is a very bad idea. With no load in the vehicle there is much less traction, increasing the risk of skid and wheelspin. The heavy trailer further exacerbates the problem.

[firewood]

Understood. Done it once....never again.

 

 

 

http://www.kinnoirwoodfuel.co.uk

[openspaceman]

 

So thus far my understanding is i can tow my atlas trailer (unladen weight 990kg) as long as its payload is no more than about 1260kg. Assuming a payload of 1200kg back of truck this would make the whole combination 5750 kg as per the plated gcw on the truck. .

 

Yes, the new interpretation Peter found means that at long as the drawbar is rated for the load, the trailer is capable of handling the load and you are within the gross train weight of the vehicle you can do it. In the past the strict interpretation was if the plated weight of the trailer exceeded the allowed towable weight to use it was unlawful.

 

The point I have not found out about is if driving a 6 tonne gross vehicle and towing a 3.5 plated tonne trailer but with the GCW less than 8.25 tonnes will my C1 +E with restriction 107 still be valid? In the past the gross permitted weights dictated the licence requirement.

 

so the question remains does this combination require a tacho and or o licence.

 

 

That depends on what you are doing, if for hire and reward then yes but if doing your own work then no operator's licence is necessary because the gross weight of the vehicle is less than 3.5 tonnes and the trailer is excluded from weight calculations because it is a small trailer.

 

Tacho is again dependent on what you are doing and what the actual weight is. If your gross combination weight is over 3.5tonnes then you need to conform to european hours regs (tacho required) unless you are traveling to a worksite within a radius of 50km with only the tools to do the job or enjoy one of the other exemptions.

 

One thing about English law is the business of precedents, i.e. has the law been challenged in court and has a judge's interpretation been made. I am not aware of precedents being set but our chipper supplier did get fined for having no tacho and driving to demonstrate chippers rather than taking it to site to use, he now has a tacho in the Discovery.

 

As we know most arborists do travel to work with tools and a tow behind chipper, claim to work within a 50km radius and seldom get questioned, which is as it should be.

 

What about the scenario as above with the Iveco laden with chip from the job and the greenmech 1928 on the trailer behind and no tachograph fitted, returning from a job 30km from home?

 

GCW is pushing 6 tonnes with ~3tonne of the Iveco and woodchip and 2.5 tonne of trailer.

 

Everything legal from licence point of view C1 +E and less than 8.25 tonnes but are the woodchips and logs part of tools of the trade? Luckily the nice lady from the Merton VOSA office, before it closed, thought it would be splitting hairs to say otherwise but...

 

Apart from a driving test 44 years ago I have no transport qualifications so I'm not being prescriptive, just offering my interpretation for discussion.

[firewood]

Catweazle, does haulage of your own goods only come under the same heading as "tools of the trade". I.e. not carrying others goods for reward....in this instant the own goods being firewood. Will this get me off the requirement for a tacho if within 50km of base.?

 

http://www.kinnoirwoodfuel.co.uk

[treequip]

Catweazle, does haulage of your own goods only come under the same heading as "tools of the trade". I.e. not carrying others goods for reward....in this instant the own goods being firewood. Will this get me off the requirement for a tacho if within 50km of base.?

 

kwfhomepage

 

 

 

 

Unforunately no, and no

[openspaceman]

Catweazle, does haulage of your own goods only come under the same heading as "tools of the trade". I.e. not carrying others goods for reward....in this instant the own goods being firewood. Will this get me off the requirement for a tacho if within 50km of base.?

 

 

Treequip has answered this, the only realistic option is to fit a tacho, it's not too onerous as long as you remember to switch it to break when you are working on other things and don't drive more than 4 hours on a journey. I tend to forget on the rare occasions I do have a vehicle with one as I mostly drive a small van.

 

You might enjoy the 100km radius exemption for forestry if you haul your logs directly from a woodland which is in your occupation.

 

I expect the majority of people delivering logs in vehicles over 3.5 tonnes combination weight do so without tachos just as many arborists have a burn pile at their yards...