Splicing - Does it need to be certified?

[john dawson]

however as the rope has been cut, by whatever means and reason, it should be re-tested and re-labelled accordingly.

 

ie - a 45m rope with a nick in it can be shortend to above the nick, but as it has been altered it needs labelling to say so. (its not 45m anymore, its now XXm)

 

same with the splice

 

ie a 45m rope cut from a roll needs a label to trace the rope-roll-supplier-manufacturer. anyone adding a splice needs to label the same to say. (serial no XXXXXXXX with a hand splice noXXXXX )

 

at the end of the day, the rope has been altered from its origional tested state.

 

and yes one of my splices passed the isa kit check without a label!

[Peter]

ISA kit checks are for a recreational event, so dont come under the regs that apply to work situations, although in most cases the same standards are applied.

 

An ISA kit check is certainly not a "thorough examination", it would take a week to do all the kit checks before an event if it were!

[Pete Bannister]

Interesting thread guys. Some good points; especially those made by Pete.

 

If you pressure and succeed in a quest for the mandatory certification of all individuals to splice (that is, for all splicing where PPE is involved) acquisition of this craft skill will become even more limited. More importantly, the more we rely on 'paperwork' to manage hazard ( e.g. CE certification etc.) the more rapidly the skill and ability to personally and competently assess risk and manage hazard will be eroded. Ultimately, this will result in fewer people with the 'competence' to manage hazard. Played out to its logical conclusions, we end up with a reliance on machines and machinery. Not an attractive or particularly sustainable outcome

[ArbjobsNick]

 

Knots are taught during training and are part of our climbing history if you lose the spliced eye off of your rope due to wear and tear you will need to either try splicing the tail end yourself or use a knot until its replaced. Its knot (excuse the pun) ideal but hey the other choice is buying a new line.

 

If you want to hand splice your personal climbing kit and feel capable of doing it to a high enough standard and have a LOLER inspector that will pass them it’s your risk.

 

 

Please refer to my initial post.

 

TM's supply of replacement bridge's is their issue. During ISA comps I know a number of climbers have had to have knots they thought were single fishermans hitches undone and retied correctly as all that was holding them together was the electrical tape! and your promoting the same climbers splice their own ropes?

 

As I said right from the start here I am in favour of hand splices but we do need to agree some level of competancy and testing and until that is widely available I for one will continue to advise climbers to stick to CE marked and properly tested products.

 

If anyone want's to climb on their own splice as I have said it is wholey their choice and their risk and if a climber knows he is buying a non conforming non EN tested product that again is his choice.

 

What I object to is climbers being sold products were they are not aware that the products they are buying do not conform to any CE and have not been correctly tested.

[Peter]

I agree.

 

Perhaps there should be a NPTC test for knots? Certainly there should be more emphasis on these basics in training, the number of current students who cant tie a Blakes properly is appalling. I would like to see knots and the principles of splicing taught at a very basic level. The failings of the current training system are perhaps best reserved for another thread though?

 

Practising arborists that cant be bothered to learn to tie knots properly are unlikely to have the patience to learn splicing anyway.

 

Certainly if anyone asks me about buying or selling non-Ce marked splices I would give them the same advise, and if anyone is selling such splices under false pretences perhaps that is a matter for Trading Standards?

[ArbjobsNick]

I am glad we seem to be agreeing on the basic principles here, I don't want to fall out with anyone over this.

 

I am glad to have been able to use the forum to air my thoughts on the subject as I feel some people have misrepresented my stance on splicing. I am a bit of a stickler (anal?) for the rules and regs but only in the interests of keeping climbers safe.

 

As I keep saying I am in principle in favour of hand splices and would hate to see them banned. Maybe I am a little enthusiastic about seeing the industry forward to a long term solution to safe hand splicing but feel I have sat on the fence and said very little for far too long.

[bob]

I am glad we seem to be agreeing on the basic principles here, I don't want to fall out with anyone over this.

 

I am glad to have been able to use the forum to air my thoughts on the subject as I feel some people have misrepresented my stance on splicing. I am a bit of a stickler (anal?) for the rules and regs but only in the interests of keeping climbers safe.

 

As I keep saying I am in principle in favour of hand splices and would hate to see them banned. Maybe I am a little enthusiastic about seeing the industry forward to a long term solution to safe hand splicing but feel I have sat on the fence and said very little for far too long.

 

I am similar and have the same stance

It often worries me to read posts where someone had decided to have a go then say they are happy to go and climb on them

I do splice and i do do loler and i do try to preach good practice but obviously i have conflicting stances

[Pete Mctree]

I have watched this thread with interest and I feel I must voice my opinion.

 

Firstly I must make my position clear. I am an employee & a LOLER inspector, plus self employed as a contract climber. I climb upon my own splices, splices by others and factory splices on cordage imported by influential equipment suppliers here in the UK.

 

Firstly as a LOLER inspector. I am aware of the implications of the PPE regs, but as a splicer, understanding the construction and proportions of the common splices, I hope I can save someones life without condoning there actions.

 

As an employee I see the frustration of the adherence to factory splices only. Especially when I am in contact with those who can splice in a competent manor in my opinion. I guess the importers want us to purchase a new line when we damage a rope, requiring the spliced eye to be removed?

 

finally as a self employed climber, I climb with confidence on my own and others splices. I have tested my own (tied in-between an LDV and a huge stem with as much force the vehicle could muster ) and as a result have become a convert to the splicing world.

 

My point? Well, like Bob, I find myself between a rock an a hard place. I advocate the use, education of the correct (recommended) construction and creation of non-factory splices. I would like to see the possibility of certification of them, or at least the inspection by those competent. However inspecting kit I have to record the "non compliance". Something must change. The splicing of cordage is a naturally desired skill within the industry and those who educate others and partake should be applauded and supported. HOWEVER this requires regulation. There are individuals persuing this, but should not the powers that be define the criteria?

 

Sorry no definitive answers, but more food for thought I hope.........

[David Humphries]

Sorry no definitive answers, but more food for thought I hope.........

 

Fine post Pete, good to see you dipping in.

 

 

I run a team that has an in-house splicer, who splices for us all.

This may not be exactly by the book, but I (as his manager) deem him competent, and send him on relevent courses where I can. (splicing, thorough inspection etc....)

 

As well as the above, keeping upto date on the rope & cordage that is coming to the market, & mainainting a more than regular eye on various threads and issues, keeps the two of us on the path to a justifiable competence imo.

 

That is until the grail that is certifiable competence, is among us.

 

 

 

.

[john dawson]

ISA kit checks are for a recreational event, so dont come under the regs that apply to work situations, although in most cases the same standards are applied.

 

An ISA kit check is certainly not a "thorough examination", it would take a week to do all the kit checks before an event if it were!

 

i had this in another thread i started ages ago (rope marking) so i wont go into it here.

 

 

but yes, a certification system is a good way forward.