How do they get away with it

[gibbon]

Your "all being equal argument is totally fictional. The running cost will vary with every outfit even if they appear to be doing a simmilar job. Wages, traing budgets, ppe budgets, accreditation cost, holiday entitlement the list goes on. I doubt too many firms are eqaul on all accounts. Also the larger outfits will have a lower cost per man than smaller firms. Huck with tens of grand in kit on a job will have a much higher running cost per man than a large firm with lots of 3 man teams out in fleet hire transits.

 

A small, well equiped, aaac or similarly accredited company will have a much higher running cost per employee than either a pikey outfit or a national company such as fountains.

 

I've no doubt is possible to charge less and make more profit because in my few years being self employed I did.

[Mark Cattell]

Its all academic... I know big companies who charge full wack and do poor quality work and 1 man bands doing excellent work really cheaply....

 

Just do your thing and ignore the rest...

 

or grass them up to police or HSE or local EHO/tree officer or environment agency... and hope for some action...

[Gareth Dalzell]

In fact my aim is to get the job at mid price, not the lowest, and win it on service and attitude.

 

Exactly, it's not the one who gets it at the cheapest price that makes the money and that there's nothing wrong with promoting you companies plus points eg service and attitude, to increase or justify your price.

 

With reference to all costs not being the same - in many sectors they carry out "bench marking" to compare there margins and costs against each other. It's a very interesting exercise. It's not all academic, it's very real. There are those who say "just do you own thing and get on with it" but I see nothing wrong with sharing information and experiences on costs and how our businesses work so that as a sector we can improve our operating systems and challenge the situations that the person who started the thread was talking about. Thats a lot of what a forum is about.

[skyhuck]

With reference to all costs not being the same - in many sectors they carry out "bench marking" to compare there margins and costs against each other. It's a very interesting exercise. It's not all academic, it's very real. There are those who say "just do you own thing and get on with it" but I see nothing wrong with sharing information and experiences on costs and how our businesses work so that as a sector we can improve our operating systems and challenge the situations that the person who started the thread was talking about. Thats a lot of what a forum is about.

 

 

Be very careful, this is often called a "cartel" or price fixing and is totally illegal

Edited February 27, 2010 by skyhuck

[skyhuck]

Exactly, it's not the one who gets it at the cheapest price that makes the money and that there's nothing wrong with promoting you companies plus points eg service and attitude, to increase or justify your price.

 

 

It can be.

[Gareth Dalzell]

Be very careful, this is often called a "cartel" or price fixing and is totally illegal

 

My understanding of a cartel is something different - with it a group you fix prices together. With bench marking you as a group monitor you costs and operating systems, and still as individuals decide your price I guess based on how much you need to make with adjustments. Its common in many business sectors. It's our local government run business development agency thats facilitates our one.

[Gareth Dalzell]

I would say that you could find enough information already on this forum to bench mark our sector fairly accurately. we have price comparisons on jobs, red diesel costs ,wages and insurance (always very well discussed on forum), machine costs dumping rates, training costs etc etc etc. It was put to me at a benching marking meeting that we all do it to various degrees with out realising. Our facilitator from Price Waterhouse Coopers(paid for by our local BDA) just give it a name and draw it all together to make it more accurate. Its good to see if you are way out in any areas, that your not paying to much or wasting time in parts of your business. The previous posts have covered many aspects of this process.

 

Its just a discussion subject - it's good to talk:001_smile:

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

Reet Rupe, here we go (re-'subbies' & EL insurance)...I'm still not sure so will seek a view from HSE but the guidance (see http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/hse40.pdf) states:

"You may need employers’ liability insurance for someone who works for you where:

■■ you deduct national insurance and income tax from the money you pay them;

■■ you have the right to control where and when they work and how they do it;

■■ you supply their work materials and equipment;

■■ you have a right to any profit your workers make although you may choose to share

this with them through commission, performance pay or shares in the company;

■■ you require that person only to deliver the service and they cannot employ a

substitute if they are unable to do the work; or

■■ they are treated in the same way as other employees, for example, they do the

same work under the same conditions as someone else you employ.

You may not need employers’ liability insurance for people who work for you where:

■■ they do not work exclusively for you (for example, if they operate as an

independent contractor);

■■ they supply most of the equipment and materials they need to do the job;

■■ they are clearly in business for their own personal benefit;

■■ they can employ a substitute when they are unable to do the work themselves;

■■ you do not deduct income tax or national insurance. However, even if someone

is self-employed for tax purposes they may be classed as an employee for other

reasons and you may still need employers’ liability insurance to cover them."

 

Helpful no?...aghhhh!!!!

Cheers..

Paul

 

This is the details for Employers Liability insurance exclusivley or as well as Public liability? I asume it wouldnt be much different?

 

and if so this makes it clear (ish) that a free lance climber would need his own PL insurance, but no EL as he is a lone trader?

[munkymadman]

how many of you started with all the bells and whistles? i.e insurance and chippers and all fully qualified men. i've always felt you've had to work your way up to it. i contract away most of the time so its not viable for me to have insurance for when i do get jobs at home, i haven't got a pool of trained people in my area to employ. so instead i employ friends with savy. does that make me a cowboy. what other option do i have. plus i do live in rural ireland so it's done a bit differently here too.

[Mr B]

Yeah it is really annoying how so much of this goes on, legislation is pretty tight for us but doesnt really apply to them as they ignore it. Statute laws (acts etc) are contractual and only can exist if all parties agree, ie "understand" (stand under)

Common Law is the way ahead with ref to damage or loss somehow.

Perhaps the people to target would be those who have the works carried out, Notice To Replace orders could be put on their properties and othr burdens such as.

 

Only prob in our scarsity driven monitory system someone will have to pay for it lol.

 

Wait till I land my degree June 2011

Av got plans for these people

 

"Let me Attem"