Aerial Rescue Practice

[Mick Dempsey]

6 minutes ago, krummholz said:What's the cost in walking away from work that will put you in an unacceptable risky position? A days wage? Versus loss of life or limb?

 

 

1: Getting any more work with the company if you’re a freelance climber.

2: Eating, if you’re running your own show,

 

[krummholz]

1 hour ago, Mick Dempsey said:

1: Getting any more work with the company if you’re a freelance climber.

2: Eating, if you’re running your own show,

 

Neither of which will be a problem any more when you've bled out after an accident chogging down Mrs Magoos leylandii for Cut'n'Run for £150/day.

 

I'm genuinely surprised by the derailment of a thread asking about practicing aerial rescue. I thought it would be uncontroversial. 

 

Has the industry always been a race to the bottom?

[Pete Mctree]

7 minutes ago, krummholz said:

Neither of which will be a problem any more when you've bled out after an accident chogging down Mrs Magoos leylandii for Cut'n'Run for £150/day.

 

I'm genuinely surprised by the derailment of a thread asking about practicing aerial rescue. I thought it would be uncontroversial. 

 

Has the industry always been a race to the bottom?

You massively overrate the importance of a rescue climber. Chances are if you have a major arterial bleed and you can’t get to the floor you’re dead!

Climb up 40ft and then ask your rescue climber to come & rescue you without warning. Which would be quicker, you bleeding out or them running around the house to get there kit ?

I honestly place more importance on a ground guy’s ability to run the ropes well above trying to get themselves up a tree for the first time in months - I have seen bad roping hurt a lot of people….

[krummholz]

2 minutes ago, Pete Mctree said:

You massively overrate the importance of a rescue climber. Chances are if you have a major arterial bleed and you can’t get to the floor you’re dead!

Climb up 40ft and then ask your rescue climber to come & rescue you without warning. Which would be quicker, you bleeding out or them running around the house to get there kit ?

I honestly place more importance on a ground guy’s ability to run the ropes well above trying to get themselves up a tree for the first time in months - I have seen bad roping hurt a lot of people….

But a rescue attempt should improve the chances of survival and recovery, like any first aid received! I agree that if a rescue needs to be undertaken after a catastrophic injury then the liklihood of survival is very low, but it will never be zero. It will be zero if no rescue is attempted or even available! And a trained and ready rescuer will get the casualty down quicker than one that us under trained and under prepared. I genuinely don't get this "oh I've cut myself badly and for whatever reason I can't self rescue, guess I'll just die then" fatalism, as though there were literally no other options or nothing to work towards - there is, and it's right there in Section 16.2 of TG1.

 

Yes you need good rope work from the groundies, but why are the 2 mutually exclusive? Surely you'd want both?

[krummholz]

On 05/07/2023 at 21:39, Pete Mctree said:

A simple solution might be to change the training model, to one that requires time in the tree before progressing. The rope access world successfully runs such a model and if we want as an industry to progress and be recognised then we need to change.

 

And wouldn't a stepping stone towards this be regular aerial rescue practices? Maybe at least every 6 months or less? Wouldn't that be a way in which someone who's just passed their Tree Climbing and Rescue ticket 3 or 6 or 12 months ago to have more time in the tree, and an aid to progression?

[5thelement]

10 hours ago, krummholz said:

And wouldn't a stepping stone towards this be regular aerial rescue practices? Maybe at least every 6 months or less? Wouldn't that be a way in which someone who's just passed their Tree Climbing and Rescue ticket 3 or 6 or 12 months ago to have more time in the tree, and an aid to progression?

Surely hardly anyone gets their aerial rescue just to remain a groundy?
Most people with climbing tickets are climbers and should be climbing most days, or at least regularly.

Unless you are seriously injured you will get yourself down quicker than any rescue attempt, fact. 
Have you ever timed a rescue from a decent height?
Forget it, self rescue is what you should be equipped to do, and you should think about possible descents as part of your work plan in the tree.

The vast majority of Arb teams in the UK aren’t working to, and couldn’t give a toss what is written in TG1, you do realise this, right?

Edited July 7, 2023 by 5thelement

[krummholz]

7 hours ago, 5thelement said:

Surely hardly anyone gets their aerial rescue just to remain a groundy?
Most people with climbing tickets are climbers and should be climbing most days, or at least regularly.

 

As @dangb93 said earlier, the ideal would be to have at least 2 people on site capable of doing the work, both for rescue and for a general high level of competence and efficiency in planning and executing the job at hand. The climber/groundy dichotomy is a bad one - yes there are loads of folk who are great on the ground and don't climb, but I disagree that just because you're a competent climber you should be up climbing every day. If you're an Arborist you should have a broad skill level and high level of competence across all aspects of the work.

7 hours ago, 5thelement said:

The vast majority of Arb teams in the UK aren’t working to, and couldn’t give a toss what is written in TG1, you do realise this, right?

This weekend thousands of people will break speed limits and not wear seat belts, and (proportionally) mostly without incident. Doesn't mean they should be doing it or that it's OK to, or that if something goes wrong that the consequences won't be significant.

[5thelement]

1 hour ago, krummholz said:

This weekend thousands of people will break speed limits and not wear seat belts, and (proportionally) mostly without incident. Doesn't mean they should be doing it or that it's OK to, or that if something goes wrong that the consequences won't be significant.

You are now becoming tediously boring, especially with this whataboutery.

No one is going to do it the way YOU want, it’s been the same for the last 30 years, despite TG1, end of.

[benedmonds]

I am playing  devils advocate here, but no one has mentioned that aerial rescue practice is dangerous.. I am sure there has been at least one death durring training and that was with a professional trainer on site.

 

Is it possible that there would actually be more accidents after all this training?

How do you justify it under the WAH hierarchy of risk..? 

[krummholz]

1 hour ago, 5thelement said:

You are now becoming tediously boring, especially with this whataboutery.

No one is going to do it the way YOU want, it’s been the same for the last 30 years, despite TG1, end of.

That doesn't address my point. And while I disagree with you, you're right one on thing, this is tediously boring.

 

I'll do it the way I want it. I only asked a specific question about aerial rescue practice, and wasn't expecting to be derailed into defending aerial rescue itself. But this is Arbtalk after all!