Russia Invades ukraine

[Steven P]

57 minutes ago, GarethM said:

Why not define war Vs an occupation.

 

Let's use Afghanistan as a recent benchmark for you. We went to war and gave it back, within days it returned to pretty much the same condition as before, after what 15-20 years of occupation?.

 

However with Afghanistan, 'we' didn't cross our borders, walk in there and say "all this is ours now", 'we' went in with a very different mission to the Russians in the Ukraine, so I don't think the 2 are directly comparable.

 

Back to Trumps suggestion that the Ukraine could have done a deal 3 years ago, I am very much interested to know what that deal could have been and could have been acceptable to the victim on the piece. I suspect that Trumps idea of a deal would have been conceding a defeat, and a loss of more territory. I might be wrong but suspect I am not, and such a deal is only giving power to the aggressor.

[GarethM]

3 minutes ago, Steven P said:

 

However with Afghanistan, 'we' didn't cross our borders, walk in there and say "all this is ours now", 'we' went in with a very different mission to the Russians in the Ukraine, so I don't think the 2 are directly comparable.

 

Back to Trumps suggestion that the Ukraine could have done a deal 3 years ago, I am very much interested to know what that deal could have been and could have been acceptable to the victim on the piece. I suspect that Trumps idea of a deal would have been conceding a defeat, and a loss of more territory. I might be wrong but suspect I am not, and such a deal is only giving power to the aggressor.

How long has Russia been in the Donbas?.

 

You're coveted EU and NATO are responsible, turning into modern day Anthony Eden's.

[Steven P]

You're distracting yourself from my musings though, what kind of deal would Trump be suggesting that could have been done 3 years ago that would be acceptable to both sides?

 

Let's assume we take out the EU, NATO and Afghanistan (?) from the equation, Ukraine phones up Russia "Lets do a deal, you feck off out of Ukraine and Russia ..... ? " - that last part I am struggling with, a deal acceptable to both sides.

[peds]

I wish you'd learn how to use apostrophes.

 

Anyway, neither the EU nor NATO are responsible for Russia invading any part of Ukraine, at any moment in time. But, in the interests of fostering discussion, lgo ahead and tell us why they are.

[GarethM]

Why not use a little common sense before throwing you're toys out of the pram, the same deal pretty much Boris was touting briefly.

 

Russia keeps the Donbas, the river becomes the border and the EU/NATO set up along it.

 

Unless you'd like a DMZ like north/south Korea, Cyprus or Germany?.

[Steven P]

Ahh so the aggressor, Russia wins, the victim, Ukraine looses? Do you think that is acceptable to all sides and it is a deal that would have been achievable 3 years ago when Russia was controlling much more land... that would appease them so they don't take any more, ever. I don't.

 

Pretty much, "Roll over Ukraine, surrender" and all is good in the world?

 

[GarethM]

17 minutes ago, Steven P said:

Ahh so the aggressor, Russia wins, the victim, Ukraine looses? Do you think that is acceptable to all sides and it is a deal that would have been achievable 3 years ago when Russia was controlling much more land... that would appease them so they don't take any more, ever. I don't.

 

Pretty much, "Roll over Ukraine, surrender" and all is good in the world?

Well with you encyclopedic knowledge, why not find me a country that got invaded and got it all back (WW1&2 excluding as that was a world war)

 

It's called negotiation, do you seriously think Russia is just going to stop and go home?.

 

If you actually believe that take all records of your education and burn them on a BBQ in the garden as they've taught you nothing.

Edited Wednesday at 15:42 by GarethM

[Steven P]

Going back to where we were this morning, Trump is saying to The Ukraine that they should have done a deal 3 years ago. The deal you are thinking of was not acceptable to the Ukraine 3 years ago, and in fact while Russia was making advances into the country they were not looking for a deal either - brute force tactics from them. 

 

So Trump saying "You should have done a deal 3 years ago" are just empty words.

 

I'll fire it back to you, do you think that 3 years ago The Ukraine would have settled to hand over the Donbas region? Do you think that was the deal to be done?

[GarethM]

22 minutes ago, Steven P said:

Going back to where we were this morning, Trump is saying to The Ukraine that they should have done a deal 3 years ago. The deal you are thinking of was not acceptable to the Ukraine 3 years ago, and in fact while Russia was making advances into the country they were not looking for a deal either - brute force tactics from them. 

 

So Trump saying "You should have done a deal 3 years ago" are just empty words.

 

I'll fire it back to you, do you think that 3 years ago The Ukraine would have settled to hand over the Donbas region? Do you think that was the deal to be done?

Well it's pretty obvious I say yes a deal should have been done.

 

And as usual you're just stuck to your moral high ground of Russia should go home, stomp feet they're bad waffle waffle waffle.

 

So what's your solution, they aren't going home so...........

[Big J]

I listen to a lot of podcasts at work and one of the regulars is one called The Bulwark from the US which comes from what was originally a centre right conservative group of republicans who define themselves now as "Never Trumpers". A very interesting and usually moderate source of news and opinion.

 

Anyway what was an amusing aside to an otherwise depressing escalation of events from the US, was that they referenced an old Mitchell and Webb sketch where Nazis on the front line in World War II have a moment of self-reflection and wonder, nay, realise that they are the baddies. 

 

Tim Miller of the Bulwark posed that question about the US now. Siding with Russia against Ukraine, denouncing European countries and repeatedly talking about forceful territorial expansion does nothing to dissuade me of that notion either.