Isc rope grab help

[Alexthetreesurgeon]

On 29/12/2021 at 01:27, john87 said:

The makers state 9 to 13mm.. Thing was though, it just did not feel right.. I think what the issue is, the maximum diameter may very well be 13mm ROPE, as this is squashy, so the grab has no problem grabbing. Indeed, my climbing rope is 13mm and it will grab that no problem at all.

 

Now, when i tried it on a steel core flipline of 11mm, [i think it actually measures a bit more] it worked fine, but did not feel "happy" shall we say.. It was certainly much happier on my 11mm [or thereabouts] squashy rope lanyard.

 

I think the difference is that the flipline is hard and incompressable so the grab cannot get such a firm grip.

 

Think of it like this; If you dangled a half inch diameter rope vertically down from a beam and grabbed it with your hands, you might well be able to hold your own weight. If you swapped the rope for a smooth half inch steel bar [or indeed a wire rope] and tried again, you would have no chance..

 

Do not misunderstand, it worked ok on the 11mm flipline, but if i went up to 13mm, i have an idea things might not have been too good at all.

 

I swapped it for a Prusik.. It works really well, but it is a bugger to adjust. If i was doing it all day every day like you lot, it would be tempting to go back to the rope grab as the Prusik is hard work.. But for me, although a pain, at least i know for a fact that no matter how much a flap the flipline about, when i go to lean back i will not fall off the tree!!

 

john..

Put a pulley on your flip line under your Prussik and you can tend it real easy and one handed. 

[john87]

3 hours ago, Alexthetreesurgeon said:

Put a pulley on your flip line under your Prussik and you can tend it real easy and one handed. 

I tried that with my lanyard once before and it did not work too well because of the relative lengths of the pulley/karabiner compared to the "legs" of the Prusik. I will try it again though, put fitting the pulley a different way i think..

 

john..

[Alexthetreesurgeon]

On 01/01/2022 at 11:18, john87 said:

I tried that with my lanyard once before and it did not work too well because of the relative lengths of the pulley/karabiner compared to the "legs" of the Prusik. I will try it again though, put fitting the pulley a different way i think..

 

john..

Yeah, either get a shorter prussik 75 cm or try a few different knot configurations. Lots of folks like a distel or knut cos they can get pretty compact. I tend to use a vt or xt. Deffo worth it, way smoother than a rope grab. 

[Gareth 85]

On 03/01/2022 at 16:42, Alexthetreesurgeon said:

Yeah, either get a shorter prussik 75 cm or try a few different knot configurations. Lots of folks like a distel or knut cos they can get pretty compact. I tend to use a vt or xt. Deffo worth it, way smoother than a rope grab. 

I have used a distel on my flip line,  I used wire cored for around 10 years and the last few years I tend to go for my 13mm rope one that's got  10mm ocean polyester (I think its called) friction cord tied with 2x fisherman knots because I find pre made Valdotain with splices are either too long or two short 

when i cut my own lengths of cord I can make subtle adjustments until the VT works smoothly without ever needing adjustments and I use a hitch climber rapid  pulley...

and I like DMM sentinel Karabiner for easy one handed use.

I've never liked the isc rope grabs..

I never liked that you have to take your weight off the grab to lengthen your line, while with the Valdotain and hitch climber you can make tiny adjustments while still loading your flip line..

I use the same set up on secondary climbing lines , but 11.7mm spliced with a zigzag on my main lines with basic cambium savers.

I dont know how anyone could climb with a brakes hitch if you have used anything with a pulley lol 

[Gareth 85]

On 29/12/2021 at 21:17, john87 said:

Is there any one thing in particular that would be climbers usually struggle with or find difficult??

 

john..

definitely...I used to make a lot of unnecessary technical mistakes like climbing back up through forks or back up and around parts instead of simply unclipping the climbing lines and passing them around or throwing them up and over ..and it took me at least a year to get efficient and to get into the routine of that type of detail.

 

Also its really important to be in as comfortable a position as possible.

nothing worse than being out on a long lateral limb with too steep an anchor pulling you backwards and out sideways from the point your trying to work on and having to constantly press your legs into the branch to create equal pressure to keep you in place all while your harness is digging into your side lol...

when I first started working in trees I used to just get up and just work in any way or direction,  going up then down , back up then around in circles and by the end of the day I would be so tired from lots of unnecessary movements and inefficient climbing.

now as I'm going up I am mentally taking in information that will help me get around the tree and work from top and then round as I go down and making sure my main line is as vertical and has as clear a path as possible and if necessary work out any places you may need redirects...the same goes for lowering,  nothing worse than branches getting hung up half way down and having to repeatedly go down to free them just to have to  climb up again...also another thing that's creates a lot of unnecessary fatigue is your climbing line running against or thrusts of points or especially twisted around the trunk as you go, that goes for above or below you,  all that rop making contact creates friction and will end up costing you a lot of wasted energy xx

I've been climbing 14 years now and it takes a good 5 years to get competent never mind good at it  and may be 8 years or more before your can confidently,  safely,  efficiently and quickly tackle any tree and I still do things sometimes without realising until I've gone through a horizontal fork and made it harder work than need be by forgetting simple but effective small things again like leaving part of your rope draped over the branch so you can unclip your system and pull the draped part to get the system back up through the fork and back to you so u don't have to climb up and through it lol this will save joints and muscles in the long run..and reducing friction in your system is a huge factor in saving energy as is carrying too much unnecessary kit ..carry things you may need like few webbing slings and spare karabiner and a first aid kit  but don't go attaching all sorts of spare ascender, karabiner, figure 8, prussik loops , if you need it get it sent up..carrying extra weight is not worth it ..hope that helps 

[john87]

5 hours ago, Gareth 85 said:

definitely...I used to make a lot of unnecessary technical mistakes like climbing back up through forks or back up and around parts instead of simply unclipping the climbing lines and passing them around or throwing them up and over ..and it took me at least a year to get efficient and to get into the routine of that type of detail.

 

Also its really important to be in as comfortable a position as possible.

nothing worse than being out on a long lateral limb with too steep an anchor pulling you backwards and out sideways from the point your trying to work on and having to constantly press your legs into the branch to create equal pressure to keep you in place all while your harness is digging into your side lol...

when I first started working in trees I used to just get up and just work in any way or direction,  going up then down , back up then around in circles and by the end of the day I would be so tired from lots of unnecessary movements and inefficient climbing.

now as I'm going up I am mentally taking in information that will help me get around the tree and work from top and then round as I go down and making sure my main line is as vertical and has as clear a path as possible and if necessary work out any places you may need redirects...the same goes for lowering,  nothing worse than branches getting hung up half way down and having to repeatedly go down to free them just to have to  climb up again...also another thing that's creates a lot of unnecessary fatigue is your climbing line running against or thrusts of points or especially twisted around the trunk as you go, that goes for above or below you,  all that rop making contact creates friction and will end up costing you a lot of wasted energy xx

I've been climbing 14 years now and it takes a good 5 years to get competent never mind good at it  and may be 8 years or more before your can confidently,  safely,  efficiently and quickly tackle any tree and I still do things sometimes without realising until I've gone through a horizontal fork and made it harder work than need be by forgetting simple but effective small things again like leaving part of your rope draped over the branch so you can unclip your system and pull the draped part to get the system back up through the fork and back to you so u don't have to climb up and through it lol this will save joints and muscles in the long run..and reducing friction in your system is a huge factor in saving energy as is carrying too much unnecessary kit ..carry things you may need like few webbing slings and spare karabiner and a first aid kit  but don't go attaching all sorts of spare ascender, karabiner, figure 8, prussik loops , if you need it get it sent up..carrying extra weight is not worth it ..hope that helps 

Thanks for taking the time to write out your brilliant advice!!

I am 60 now and just starting, so i doubt i will ever be "competant" or fit enough to do much more than very little..

 

You say about;

"nothing worse than being out on a long lateral limb with too steep an anchor pulling you backwards and out sideways from the point your trying to work on and having to constantly press your legs into the branch to create equal pressure to keep you in place all while your harness is digging into your side lol.."

 

I am thinking of getting one of them DMM "captain" hook things that should help with that type of problem!

 

I will never be good enough or fit enough to go all over the canopy of a tree doing some of the amazing work you people do. So long as i can take one down safely that is all i am aiming for. I have got loads to practice on too, some very big trees, well, by my standards anyway.

 

Reducing friction would be great too. I know i am making things difficult messing about with blakes hitches, but i thought learn to walk before i try to run. Not keen on "gadgets" either, more to go wrong..

 

My friction saver seems pretty crap too.. Are they supposed to wear?? Mine has not had much use, but the rope has worn grooves in it.. Surely that cannot be right?? I thought the rings would be hard anodized, but apparently not.. Next time i get one, i will get one with steel rings i think..

 

john..

[noidea]

Hi 

Got to look at my old flip line yesterday, for those interested it is the same thickness as my new one which I was thought was the case. 
The only differences I can see is that the out layer of the line looks as if it is a slightly different material to the new one, also due to its age it’s rougher which maybe the reason it grips easier in the rope grab. 
I’ve got a small tree job coming up which I will use the new one on to try it out. As people have commented I think the grab is working fine just slightly differently to how I am used to. 
Thanks for all the comments and ideas. 
many thanks 

[openspaceman]

On 03/01/2022 at 16:42, Alexthetreesurgeon said:

Yeah, either get a shorter prussik 75 cm or try a few different knot configurations. Lots of folks like a distel or knut cos they can get pretty compact. I tend to use a vt or xt. Deffo worth it, way smoother than a rope grab. 

What rope and length does one need for trying these different knots out on a modern climbing rope?

[Dan Maynard]

1 hour ago, openspaceman said:

What rope and length does one need for trying these different knots out on a modern climbing rope?

I usually reckon on about 0.5-0.6m gone in a pair of double fisherman's onto the crab plus 0.7-0.9 to make the knot so if you buy 2m you can try it, or get 5m and cut 1.5m off to start.

 

Gustharts, honeys etc sell friction cord by the metre,  I'm usually using the cheap stuff £2 ish per metre as it lasts me the 6 months between LOLER and then bin. Teufelberger Sirius, Marlow boa, Yale silver Streak etc.

[openspaceman]

51 minutes ago, Dan Maynard said:

I usually reckon on about 0.5-0.6m gone in a pair of double fisherman's onto the crab plus 0.7-0.9 to make the knot so if you buy 2m you can try it, or get 5m and cut 1.5m off to start.

 

Gustharts, honeys etc sell friction cord by the metre,  I'm usually using the cheap stuff £2 ish per metre as it lasts me the 6 months between LOLER and then bin. Teufelberger Sirius, Marlow boa, Yale silver Streak etc.

8mm, 9.5mm or 10mm?

 

Why double fishermans over a figure of eight or bowline?