Implied TPO in Conservation Area

[daltontrees]

1 hour ago, Treerover said:

 

This is also my concern, is that the TO turns up tomorrow mid morning whilst the tree is being removed .
What then ?
On the planning notes it details 03/11 as target date for determination, and yet this is 6 weeks and 2 days from the registered valid date ?
What are they able to do by this point in proceedings ?

In theory (and I have heard of it happen) the TPO could hand-write a TPO there and then like a parking ticket and serve it on you.

 

The COuncil doesn't need to 'determine' the application, it's not an application, it's a notification. It nooed sto decide whether to stop you by making a TPO or if it is being helpful it could tell you that it's OK to go ahead.

 

I once had 2 squad cars and 4 rozzers turn up, along witht the whole committee of the local residents association, just as I had attached a cable to the top of the biggest tree on a site and the guys were tensioning the winch up. It was really hard to get it across to the baying crowd that I didn't need a bit of paper to say I could go ahead, I just needed the absence of a bit that said I can't go ahead. In the end I told them that we were in teh right, we were doing teh work and if they stopped us I would sue for a day's wages for 6 guys, trasnport etc. Alternatively they were welcome to stay and be witnesses in a CA prosecution if they really really thought I was dumb enough  to be going ahead without having followed due process. There was mumblings, scribbling of my reggie plates and phone number, pocketing of the business cards I handed over and then sheepish withdrawal when I said there was a small chance the tree might go the wrong way and squash them or a car.

[Mick Dempsey]

That’s quite the story.

 

Nerve held.

[Stubby]

1 hour ago, Treerover said:

 

This is also my concern, is that the TO turns up tomorrow mid morning whilst the tree is being removed .
What then ?

 

tell him to look up and watch his head .

[Stubby]

1 hour ago, Treerover said:

 

On the planning notes it details 03/11 as target date for determination, and yet this is 6 weeks and 2 days from the registered valid date ?
What are they able to do by this point in proceedings ?

 

Nothing . Get out of the way ?

[Jon Heuch]

On 02/11/2021 at 20:20, daltontrees said:

In theory (and I have heard of it happen) the TPO could hand-write a TPO there and then like a parking ticket and serve it on you.

The 2012 regs state clearly what a TPO looks like. 

 

 An order shall be in the form set out in the Schedule to these Regulations or in a form substantially to the same effect and—

(a)shall specify the trees, groups of trees or woodlands to which it relates;
(b)where the order relates to a group of trees, shall specify the number of trees of each species in the group;
(c)shall indicate the position of the trees, groups of trees or woodlands, as the case may be, by reference to a map; and
(d)shall include information as to—
(i)whether or not the order was confirmed;
(ii)any variation of the order; and
(iii)any revocation of the order.
(2) An order shall contain or have annexed to it the map referred to in paragraph (1)(c) and, where a map is annexed to an order, it shall be treated as part of the order.

(3) The map contained in, or annexed to, an order shall be prepared to a scale sufficient to give a clear indication of the position of the trees, groups of trees or woodlands to which the order relates.

 

Precisely what the council has to do at the end of the Order is determined by the Standing Orders of the council, so there may be room for variation.......but I would find it a little disturbing if the tree officer could print out the Schedule, attach a plan & a list of trees without reference to anyone else at the council. Typically two signatures are required - "signed on behalf" and "authorised"....again reference to specific council standing orders are needed to determine whether the new order is legal and takes effect immediately.

 

I would send a hand written order from a tree officer on site where it belongs - the bin!

[Treerover]

UPDATE:-
We did manage to take the tree down on day 43 of the 42 BUT the TO still e mailed the client in the morning to ascertain his intentions .
I have to say I don’t think we’ve ever rigged a tree down so quickly !!


My client returned his email at 13.00 (by which time we’d taken the crown off….see video) to state his intention of carrying out proposed works. At 15.00 hrs the TO replied asking why he had done this before the required time of notice had expired !! 🤦🏼‍♂️(despite it being the day after)
By the time I returned home at approx 17.00 the planning portal listed “no objections” !

Thank you to everyone for your input, it has been a very interesting learning curve . [emoji1307]

[john87]

Good for you!! The council's HATE having to abide by the law. they think they are above all that. I have a lot to do with social care, you would not believe the outright lies they come out with., AND they will all conspire as a team to assert that "oh, yes, that is what the law says"

 

Glad you stuffed them!!

 

john..

[daltontrees]

On 04/11/2021 at 13:00, Jon Heuch said:

The 2012 regs state clearly what a TPO looks like. 

 

 An order shall be in the form set out in the Schedule to these Regulations or in a form substantially to the same effect and—

(a)shall specify the trees, groups of trees or woodlands to which it relates;
(b)where the order relates to a group of trees, shall specify the number of trees of each species in the group;
(c)shall indicate the position of the trees, groups of trees or woodlands, as the case may be, by reference to a map; and
(d)shall include information as to—
(i)whether or not the order was confirmed;
(ii)any variation of the order; and
(iii)any revocation of the order.
(2) An order shall contain or have annexed to it the map referred to in paragraph (1)(c) and, where a map is annexed to an order, it shall be treated as part of the order.

(3) The map contained in, or annexed to, an order shall be prepared to a scale sufficient to give a clear indication of the position of the trees, groups of trees or woodlands to which the order relates.

 

Precisely what the council has to do at the end of the Order is determined by the Standing Orders of the council, so there may be room for variation.......but I would find it a little disturbing if the tree officer could print out the Schedule, attach a plan & a list of trees without reference to anyone else at the council. Typically two signatures are required - "signed on behalf" and "authorised"....again reference to specific council standing orders are needed to determine whether the new order is legal and takes effect immediately.

 

I would send a hand written order from a tree officer on site where it belongs - the bin!

I wouldn't rule out an on-the-spot TPO. These have been done in the past. If it's permitted by SOs, and a witness second Council officer is there, the Order's effective. Last Council I worked for had SOs that allowed it in emergencies if it was done with the verbal agreement of the committee chair or vice-chair.

 

Throw it in the bin at your client's peril!

[john87]

1 hour ago, daltontrees said:

I wouldn't rule out an on-the-spot TPO. These have been done in the past. If it's permitted by SOs, and a witness second Council officer is there, the Order's effective. Last Council I worked for had SOs that allowed it in emergencies if it was done with the verbal agreement of the committee chair or vice-chair.

 

Throw it in the bin at your client's peril!

Funny how councils are very keen on enforcing laws that suit them, not quite so keen on laws that do not..

 

john..

[Jon Heuch]

9 hours ago, daltontrees said:

I wouldn't rule out an on-the-spot TPO. These have been done in the past. If it's permitted by SOs, and a witness second Council officer is there, the Order's effective. Last Council I worked for had SOs that allowed it in emergencies if it was done with the verbal agreement of the committee chair or vice-chair.

 

Throw it in the bin at your client's peril!

The discussion was about a "hand-written" TPO not just an on-the-spot TPO. An organised tree officer with the necessary printed paperwork in accordance with the Regs (including a plan on which the location of the tree was clear) and authorisation defined by standing orders could generate a new TPO quite quickly. Very little of it would be hand-written. There would need to be more than one identical copy in that the copy retained by the council would need to be identical to that served on the land/tree owner. If there were any interested parties each would need an identical copy.  If you are dealing with a non-tree owner tree surgeon you'll need to give them a copy too; perhaps the land/tree owner is there or if not, you need to serve it on them. That means 3 copies at least for starters. Easier to generate one & photocopy I would have thought but most people don't have facilities to hand. Not great practice to serve the TPO and photo it with your mobile phone for the council record.