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Witterings

Any Certification Required For Groundsman

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56 minutes ago, Witterings said:

 

Especially if they're uncut, unsplit and unseasoned.

 

If you'd done your chipper and up to felling small trees certificates and had your own saw you could use .... what would you get paid per day approx as a subbie in the south?

 

And how much extra if your phone stayed in your pocket all day 😄

80 Guinees and fish n chips on friday . Sixpence for the boot boy on mondays . K

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5 minutes ago, Khriss said:

80 Guinees and fish n chips on friday . Sixpence for the boot boy on mondays . K

That's you going to jail with all the apprentices who's bosses bought them lunch and have been charged with un-registered bartering ;) 

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3 hours ago, Paddy1000111 said:

We're talking about a guy who wants to do work experience and get out the office and maybe take home some logs... We aren't talking about a guy with a big van/hgv turning up and starting a log company with the free logs he gains 😂

 

He shouldn't need a waste carriers licence as either he is going to be loading it into his car and is not transporting waste for business as if he was everyone who takes some garden waste to the dump needs a lower tier licence. The other scenario is the person transporting it is the company he's working for and they *should* have a lower tier carriers licence for green waste if you want to be anal about it. 

 

I'm not saying that kevins wrong, just that we're talking about a guy doing some work experience and taking home some logs not a company exchanging a service for stocks and shares. You can earn £1000 before having to register as a sole trader, that's a s*** load of logs. 

Are you just saying he should check this, like his insurance, or is this how it really works?

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3 hours ago, Paddy1000111 said:

We're talking about a guy who wants to do work experience and get out the office and maybe take home some logs... We aren't talking about a guy with a big van/hgv turning up and starting a log company with the free logs he gains 😂

 

He shouldn't need a waste carriers licence as either he is going to be loading it into his car and is not transporting waste for business as if he was everyone who takes some garden waste to the dump needs a lower tier licence. The other scenario is the person transporting it is the company he's working for and they *should* have a lower tier carriers licence for green waste if you want to be anal about it. 

 

I'm not saying that kevins wrong, just that we're talking about a guy doing some work experience and taking home some logs not a company exchanging a service for stocks and shares. You can earn £1000 before having to register as a sole trader, that's a s*** load of logs. 

The trouble is Paddy, you (like the vast majority of the human race) are viewing it through the lens of common sense and reasonableness....  

 

HMRC don't have those glasses.

 

Of course you're right, kept on the low-down most unlikely to to ever be a problem - but it has greater potential 'issues' for a company that might be interpreted as engaging someone on such terms.

 

I'm as happy as you to say it would be unlikely - all I'm saying is, from the position of a man that HAS stood in the RCJ with a piece of yesterdays cut green wood in one hand and a 2 year air dried piece in the other it can happen and it's a barrel of laughs when it does (I do mean that actually, I really enjoyed making sure HMRC had costs far in excess of any recovery - but I am an exceptionally stubborn bar steward at the best of times 😂

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6 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

Are you just saying he should check this, like his insurance, or is this how it really works?

I'm not going down this road... 😴

 

@Witterings Don't take any sticks home in case eggs dobs you in and HMRC charge you for taking £2 of VAT chargeable goods in your car boot 😂🙄

 

I didn't say Kevin was wrong, he's completely right but I was just adding to the conversation that we're on about someone who wants an odd days experience with a bit of wood to burn at home. Not someone who's going to be working Monday-Friday and taking tonnes of wood in return. 

 

Out of curiosity @kevinjohnsonmbe how much wood did this person take in return for services? I assume that they were trying to charge you for the VAT value for the bartered items?

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1 minute ago, Paddy1000111 said:

I'm not going down this road... 😴

 

@Witterings Don't take any sticks home in case eggs dobs you in and HMRC charge you for taking £2 of VAT chargeable goods in your car boot 😂🙄

 

I didn't say Kevin was wrong, he's completely right but I was just adding to the conversation that we're on about someone who wants an odd days experience with a bit of wood to burn at home. Not someone who's going to be working Monday-Friday and taking tonnes of wood in return. 

 

Out of curiosity @kevinjohnsonmbe how much wood did this person take in return for services? I assume that they were trying to charge you for the VAT value for the bartered items?

I'll see if I can dig out the Court papers

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Just now, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

I'll see if I can dig out the Court papers

No need, I don't doubt you at all! I was just curious as to a monetary value that they put on it? Did you have someone who worked say a day or two every few months on a weekend and went home with a boot of logs or was it more? 

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2 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

No need, I don't doubt you at all! I was just curious as to a monetary value that they put on it? Did you have someone who worked say a day or two every few months on a weekend and went home with a boot of logs or was it more? 

page 5/6 gives a summary 

 

http://www.fieldtax.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/February-2016-Tax-Bulletin.pdf

 

The issue arose because HMRC didn't want to 'allow' capital and operational expenses in 2010/11 & 11/12 because they tipped the business from profit into loss and their contention was that a business trading at a loss could not be viable and therefore unable to claim AIA etc.  (I rather doubt there's a single farm business that could demonstrate profitability without subsidy - but that's a whole other story!)

 

In the end, it all came down to the accrual of arb arisings (non monetary goods received must be taken to account at their market value on the day of receipt) which is taxable rather than the value of the goods after they have been processed and made available for sale (processing and seasoning in this case.)  

 

It was a barrel of laughs and a great insight to how HMRC works.

 

My absolute favourite part was the Lower Tier Tribunal - on arrival, Clerk asked are there any admin issues you need to make the judge aware of...  I simply said I'd need to renew the parking ticket at 13:00.  No problem says the Clerk, we'll break for lunch around then anyway.  Johnny from HMRC chips in - "there's an all day multi story carpark right opposite, why don't you use that?"

 

"Because the Landrover 110 utility we're about to argue about in relation to AIA won't fit under the barrier" (you ****************ing chimp I muttered under my breath.)

 

HMRC were invited to lay out their case.  After much fumbling and confusion a 10 minute summary was presented to the judge by HMRC.

 

Then it was my turn!  About 4 hours later having delivered a killer presentation, all from memory, and answered all the questions from the bench we broke for lunch.

 

On return from lunch it was HMRCs turn to offer any rebuttals of my evidence, and mine of theirs.

 

HMRC blushed and farted and didn't have much to offer... 

 

Judge asked me if I'd sorted the car park, I replied "Yes, thank you Sir, I've put another 4 hours on the meter"

 

It probably loses it in the telling, but both myself and the judges genuinely laughed out loud 😂

 

That was the Lower Tier Tribunal, the Upper Tier was a bit more dramatic but that's a story for another day...  😂😂

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6 minutes ago, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

page 5/6 gives a summary 

 

http://www.fieldtax.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/February-2016-Tax-Bulletin.pdf

 

The issue arose because HMRC didn't want to 'allow' capital and operational expenses in 2010/11 & 11/12 because they tipped the business from profit into loss and their contention was that a business trading at a loss could not be viable and therefore unable to claim AIA etc.  (I rather doubt there's a single farm business that could demonstrate profitability without subsidy - but that's a whole other story!)

 

In the end, it all came down to the accrual of arb arisings (non monetary goods received must be taken to account at their market value on the day of receipt) which is taxable rather than the value of the goods after they have been processed and made available for sale (processing and seasoning in this case.)  

 

It was a barrel of laughs and a great insight to how HMRC works.

 

My absolute favourite part was the Lower Tier Tribunal - on arrival, Clerk asked are there any admin issues you need to make the judge aware of...  I simply said I'd need to renew the parking ticket at 13:00.  No problem says the Clerk, we'll break for lunch around then anyway.  Johnny from HMRC chips in - "there's an all day multi story carpark right opposite, why don't you use that?"

 

"Because the Landrover 110 utility we're about to argue about in relation to AIA won't fit under the barrier" (you ****************ing chimp I muttered under my breath.)

 

HMRC were invited to lay out their case.  After much fumbling and confusion a 10 minute summary was presented to the judge by HMRC.

 

Then it was my turn!  About 4 hours later having delivered a killer presentation, all from memory, and answered all the questions from the bench we broke for lunch.

 

On return from lunch it was HMRCs turn to offer any rebuttals of my evidence, and mine of theirs.

 

HMRC blushed and farted and didn't have much to offer... 

 

Judge asked me if I'd sorted the car park, I replied "Yes, thank you Sir, I've put another 4 hours on the meter"

 

It probably loses it in the telling, but both myself and the judges genuinely laughed out loud 😂

 

That was the Lower Tier Tribunal, the Upper Tier was a bit more dramatic but that's a story for another day...  😂😂

Makes for interesting reading! I would take a day in court like that with the way the lockdown is at the moment 😂 

 

Am I right in saying that this was all triggered by the chipper and trailer claim as a annual trading loss exceeded the allowable limit in relation to the income for that year to be able to claim relief?

If that's the case a similar thing happened to someone I used to work with. Bought a 35K camper van and claimed a loss for the year and triggered an investigation which cost him something like 160k in back taxes. Everywhere he went after that he had a little black book and accounted for every penny! 

 

I would be surprised if the OP ever got stung for this though as he's not running a business or making any claims. It goes back to if the company he's working for gets investigated but you would be very unlucky to have the OP on a weekend and be investigated for everyone on site on that day. Even then, when asked "What's he doing here, how are you paying him" the company can very easily say "He's just here for training, he's unpaid". Worst case scenario the OP says "I occasionally chuck a few bits of wood in the car" and I doubt the investigator would look into it. He sure as hell wouldn't be investigated like you were as there's no financial gain/loss or benefit (AIA) claims being made. He's a full time employee with another company who wants an occasional day of learning! 

 

Interesting reading though, I wonder if after the furlough lots of companies will be investigated for bartering in an attempt to cover up income by not having cash going into the account! 

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24 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

Makes for interesting reading! I would take a day in court like that with the way the lockdown is at the moment 😂 

 

Am I right in saying that this was all triggered by the chipper and trailer claim as a annual trading loss exceeded the allowable limit in relation to the income for that year to be able to claim relief?

If that's the case a similar thing happened to someone I used to work with. Bought a 35K camper van and claimed a loss for the year and triggered an investigation which cost him something like 160k in back taxes. Everywhere he went after that he had a little black book and accounted for every penny! 

 

I would be surprised if the OP ever got stung for this though as he's not running a business or making any claims. It goes back to if the company he's working for gets investigated but you would be very unlucky to have the OP on a weekend and be investigated for everyone on site on that day. Even then, when asked "What's he doing here, how are you paying him" the company can very easily say "He's just here for training, he's unpaid". Worst case scenario the OP says "I occasionally chuck a few bits of wood in the car" and I doubt the investigator would look into it. He sure as hell wouldn't be investigated like you were as there's no financial gain/loss or benefit (AIA) claims being made. He's a full time employee with another company who wants an occasional day of learning! 

 

Interesting reading though, I wonder if after the furlough lots of companies will be investigated for bartering in an attempt to cover up income by not having cash going into the account! 

I was full time employed elsewhere too - my scenario started very similarly to what the OP presents.  

 

I moved house, 4 fireplaces to be fed, started picking up wood and taking down trees to feed the fire.  It doesn't take long to move from a borrowed chainsaw to running a business. 😖  

 

The trigger costs for investigation for HMRC were peanuts, but it escalated into a 4 year battle ending up in the RCJ.  All I'm saying bud, is it can happen, and for me it did!  It was a useful learning curve though and, like your mate, I'm watertight on tax affairs now.  I don't miss a single penny that can be claimed 😂  

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