Very roughly how many cu mtrs of firewood do you sell per year.

[Westwood]

We do about 2000 loose cubic meters per year. about 30% Kiln Dried from eastern Europe.  

 

We have been running retail about 5 years after a couple of years supplying rings to wholesale.

 

We own 100 acres of mixed woodland but most processing that we do comes from adjacent estates in 3 meter lengths processor ready and increasingly tight spec for our Fuelwood firewood factory.

 

Our prices per cube range from £80 to £125.  We sell a range of accessories kindling, firelighters coal etc.

 

Our average order value is about £120 per cubic meter.

 

From our observation the majority of firewood retailers in the small to medium range either do it as a sideline to a day job or as a sideline to an existing business such as Tree Surgery or Farming.  Sideliners have minimal overheads and capital expenditure, existing businesses have shared overheads such as barns and equipment. 

 

As a stand alone business as we are you can either be very small with minimum investment or invest heavily to grow the business and achieve economies of scale which is the path we have chosen.  We have up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers.

 

We know exactly the margins on bought in product.  Capital and operating costs on sales marketing and distribution again are well known and profitability depends on volume.  What is much more difficult to get a handle on is processing costs for bought in timber - we have two processors one for volume and one for small stuff and arb waste.  It is really clear small stuff and arb waste has much higher cost.  We now avoid this or sub-contract it out to others as we do felling and forwarding in our own woodland.

 

Most of our business is from an developed base of about 600 customers within 20 miles of our site - about 70% comes from our website.  We contact the base about 4 times a year for promotional purposes.

 

Agree with GDH about the hidden nature of expenditure - this is very true in processing which drives the majority of capital requirements.  We do not operate kilns so we do not get the benefit of RHI - we operate forced air drying to supplement natural seasoning.  

 

just a few thoughts to add to the debate - be very interested in what others think - do you get out of processing altogether or are you supported by RHI.  How do you get profitability up on distribution - smaller area, fewer drops, larger trucks?

 

[arboriculturist]

16 hours ago, Westwood said:

We do about 2000 loose cubic meters per year. about 30% Kiln Dried from eastern Europe.  

 

We have been running retail about 5 years after a couple of years supplying rings to wholesale.

 

We own 100 acres of mixed woodland but most processing that we do comes from adjacent estates in 3 meter lengths processor ready and increasingly tight spec for our Fuelwood firewood factory.

 

Our prices per cube range from £80 to £125.  We sell a range of accessories kindling, firelighters coal etc.

 

Our average order value is about £120 per cubic meter.

 

From our observation the majority of firewood retailers in the small to medium range either do it as a sideline to a day job or as a sideline to an existing business such as Tree Surgery or Farming.  Sideliners have minimal overheads and capital expenditure, existing businesses have shared overheads such as barns and equipment. 

 

As a stand alone business as we are you can either be very small with minimum investment or invest heavily to grow the business and achieve economies of scale which is the path we have chosen.  We have up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers.

 

We know exactly the margins on bought in product.  Capital and operating costs on sales marketing and distribution again are well known and profitability depends on volume.  What is much more difficult to get a handle on is processing costs for bought in timber - we have two processors one for volume and one for small stuff and arb waste.  It is really clear small stuff and arb waste has much higher cost.  We now avoid this or sub-contract it out to others as we do felling and forwarding in our own woodland.

 

Most of our business is from an developed base of about 600 customers within 20 miles of our site - about 70% comes from our website.  We contact the base about 4 times a year for promotional purposes.

 

Agree with GDH about the hidden nature of expenditure - this is very true in processing which drives the majority of capital requirements.  We do not operate kilns so we do not get the benefit of RHI - we operate forced air drying to supplement natural seasoning.  

 

just a few thoughts to add to the debate - be very interested in what others think - do you get out of processing altogether or are you supported by RHI.  How do you get profitability up on distribution - smaller area, fewer drops, larger trucks?

 

" As a stand alone business as we are you can either be very small with minimum investment or invest heavily to grow the business and achieve economies of scale which is the path we have chosen.  We have up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers. "

 

Given that you buy  30% of timber already processed, employing up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers is a lot of labour to produce 1400m3 annually and retail 600m3 of bought in.

 

Sounds like you are getting a lot of low grade small timber that takes an age to process.

Edited January 17, 2021 by arboriculturist

[Justme]

2 hours ago, arboriculturist said:

Given that you buy  30% of timber already processed, employing up to 3 people full time and occasional helpers is a lot of labour to produce 1400m3 annually and retail 600m3 of bought in.

 

Sounds like you are getting a lot of low grade small timber that takes an age to process.

 

I would agree if its just the production of the raw split / cut logs you are quantifying on.

 

However with all the pre & post split / cut & delivery work as well thats needed its more realistic.

 

I think I know this company & have done work for them.

 

They have a good set up for the high quality feed stock (firewood factory, if I remember right) which produces volume quickly but needs good graded feed stock.

 

However what I saw of the lower end set up it is very slow & this is where they are loosing what the are gaining from the faster processing.

 

To just produce 1400m3 from average feed stock is less than 60 working days production for two people on a small wp30. With a bigger static set up with deck etc you could reduce that further.

 

They also suffer from having to move the wood stacks a distance to the machines which eats up time.

[arboriculturist]

1 hour ago, Justme said:

 

I would agree if its just the production of the raw split / cut logs you are quantifying on.

 

However with all the pre & post split / cut & delivery work as well thats needed its more realistic.

 

I think I know this company & have done work for them.

 

They have a good set up for the high quality feed stock (firewood factory, if I remember right) which produces volume quickly but needs good graded feed stock.

 

However what I saw of the lower end set up it is very slow & this is where they are loosing what the are gaining from the faster processing.

 

To just produce 1400m3 from average feed stock is less than 60 working days production for two people on a small wp30. With a bigger static set up with deck etc you could reduce that further.

 

They also suffer from having to move the wood stacks a distance to the machines which eats up time.

I am quantifying on the whole practical aspects of their business.

Those 2 factors of moving timber and the quality of roundwood delivered looks like what is contributing to their large labour input. 

We have 2 of the most efficient processors going and even with those with timber as it is, we could not achieve anywhere near 1400m3 in 60 days. That is with no roundwood movement and not ever having to touch the timber. Huge amounts of labour input required in the physical tasks required in production and managing the production / storage infrastructure

This is why margins are very slim as GDH has illustrated well.

Anyone who leads you to believe otherwise is deluding themselves.

Edited January 17, 2021 by arboriculturist

[Justme]

4 minutes ago, arboriculturist said:

 

We have 2 of the most efficient processors going and even with those with timber as it is, we could not achieve anywhere near 1400m3 in 60 days. 

 

You cant average 25m3 per day?

On the job I did for them we peaked at 30m3 on one day and averaged 25m3 per day. We did two 3 day sessions. 

On substandard heavily manual input timber.

[Khriss]

Haulage is the killer, used to do fuelwood chip fr a few boilers in schools, we could blart out the chip all day-  but the bulker lorry took biggest slice out of the cake  😕 K

[arboriculturist]

1 minute ago, Justme said:

 

You cant average 25m3 per day?

On the job I did for them we peaked at 30m3 on one day and averaged 25m3 per day. We did two 3 day sessions. 

On substandard heavily manual input timber.

Bought in roundwood can look nothing like what you are processing there and there is of course more to production than just timber passing through a processor, which has been mulled over numerous times on the Forum. 

 

If you step out your truck, everything is serviced, fueled up, sharp, your processor starts up, you have spare fuel on site and everything is in place ready to go with the right timber and no breakdowns, no nails/stone etc. in the timber, of course you can process 25 - 30 in a given 8 hour day.

 

Any business that processes firewood, forgetting about delivery, for every 100 hours they step out side their front door, most would be astounded what percentage of those 100 hours they are not actually processing m3 of timber, which is why knowone can maintain 25m3 in an 8 hour day unless everything they have is gunbarrel straight large diameter, which would then give them time within those 8 hours to attend to the 101 other tasks required to be carried out relating to production.

Others will disagree, which I why I rest my case now or this will become boring.

 

[Justme]

5 minutes ago, arboriculturist said:

1, Bought in roundwood can look nothing like what you are processing there 

 

2a, If you step out your truck, everything is serviced, fueled up, sharp, your processor starts up, you have spare fuel on site and everything is in place ready to go with the right timber and no breakdowns,

2b, no nails/stone etc. in the timber, of course you can process 25 - 30 in a given 8 hour day.

 

3, Any business that processes firewood, forgetting about delivery, for every 100 hours they step out side their front door, most would be astounded what percentage of those 100 hours they are not actually processing m3 of timber, which is why knowone can maintain 25m3 in an 8 hour day unless everything they have is gunbarrel straight large diameter, which would then give them time within those 8 hours to attend to the 101 other tasks required to be carried out relating to production.

Others will disagree, which I why I rest my case now or this will become boring.

 

 

 

Point 1,

True & production would be faster not slower. Thats all short bits, rings & thin stuff that all had to be man handled / loaded into the processor. Cord even crappy cord on a deck should be faster. 

 

Having watched a few other people process on lots of different machines I would say its the team that affects the production the most not the machine. I hire out with just me or with a second team member. We always produce more when its my worker even when I have had two supplied workers helping.

 

Point 2a,

Thats how every day should start. Or you are loosing money before you even start.

 

2b, shit happens, but by having spares onsite ready you minimise down time. I normally care enough spares (got caught out on one job recently re chains as the wood was eating them due to dirt & we used up 3 days worth in one day)

 

Point 3,

I guess thats why people hire me in.

We are not doing all the other business bits that they need to do. So freeing them up to run the business while we handle the production.

We process / move the cut logs, thats it.

We can & do produce 25m3 per day on average day in day out.

(hoping for more when we start using processor mk2)

Maintenance is done at the end of the day when on site or on days we dont process.

Its rare we get a shut down during the day & so far have always been able to fix it in short order.

 

We are looking at this from different positions.

 

You have a firewood production & delivery business.

I supply a service to your industry.

 

Your down time looses you production.

My down time does not affect how much we produce as its outside of your billable hours.

 

When at base we never get 25m3 done per day.

Like you say too much other stuff to do & interruptions.

But then I am running the business too when at base.

If you have enough staff they should be working onsite like I do on jobs.

Concentrating on one aspect of the job.

 

I think a few have said it well.

 

Either be small or very big.

In the middle its harder to make it pay.

 

Would be interesting to see just how much Pentland produce per processor per day.

I bet its well over 25m3 every day.

[gdh]

1 hour ago, Justme said:

 

 

Point 1,

True & production would be faster not slower. Thats all short bits, rings & thin stuff that all had to be man handled / loaded into the processor. Cord even crappy cord on a deck should be faster. 

 

Having watched a few other people process on lots of different machines I would say its the team that affects the production the most not the machine. I hire out with just me or with a second team member. We always produce more when its my worker even when I have had two supplied workers helping.

 

Point 2a,

Thats how every day should start. Or you are loosing money before you even start.

 

2b, shit happens, but by having spares onsite ready you minimise down time. I normally care enough spares (got caught out on one job recently re chains as the wood was eating them due to dirt & we used up 3 days worth in one day)

 

Point 3,

I guess thats why people hire me in.

We are not doing all the other business bits that they need to do. So freeing them up to run the business while we handle the production.

We process / move the cut logs, thats it.

We can & do produce 25m3 per day on average day in day out.

(hoping for more when we start using processor mk2)

Maintenance is done at the end of the day when on site or on days we dont process.

Its rare we get a shut down during the day & so far have always been able to fix it in short order.

 

We are looking at this from different positions.

 

You have a firewood production & delivery business.

I supply a service to your industry.

 

Your down time looses you production.

My down time does not affect how much we produce as its outside of your billable hours.

 

When at base we never get 25m3 done per day.

Like you say too much other stuff to do & interruptions.

But then I am running the business too when at base.

If you have enough staff they should be working onsite like I do on jobs.

Concentrating on one aspect of the job.

 

I think a few have said it well.

 

Either be small or very big.

In the middle its harder to make it pay.

 

Would be interesting to see just how much Pentland produce per processor per day.

I bet its well over 25m3 every day.

25+ cube in a day is easily achievable, I've done 55 before and could do more on tidy wood but it's only done with a day filling the shed, siding up logs and sharpening first. So in reality 25 cube, or whatever figure is actually done in two working days. As you say, there's a big difference between contract work and a full time business but either way the setup time is costing you.

 

Pentland have at least 4 processors and their biggest 650cm capacity does 75cube plus in a day I believe, obviously they're grading their wood ready for it to keep up effeciency.

[topchippyles]

1 hour ago, Justme said:

 

 

Point 1,

True & production would be faster not slower. Thats all short bits, rings & thin stuff that all had to be man handled / loaded into the processor. Cord even crappy cord on a deck should be faster. 

 

Having watched a few other people process on lots of different machines I would say its the team that affects the production the most not the machine. I hire out with just me or with a second team member. We always produce more when its my worker even when I have had two supplied workers helping.

 

Point 2a,

Thats how every day should start. Or you are loosing money before you even start.

 

2b, shit happens, but by having spares onsite ready you minimise down time. I normally care enough spares (got caught out on one job recently re chains as the wood was eating them due to dirt & we used up 3 days worth in one day)

 

Point 3,

I guess thats why people hire me in.

We are not doing all the other business bits that they need to do. So freeing them up to run the business while we handle the production.

We process / move the cut logs, thats it.

We can & do produce 25m3 per day on average day in day out.

(hoping for more when we start using processor mk2)

Maintenance is done at the end of the day when on site or on days we dont process.

Its rare we get a shut down during the day & so far have always been able to fix it in short order.

 

We are looking at this from different positions.

 

You have a firewood production & delivery business.

I supply a service to your industry.

 

Your down time looses you production.

My down time does not affect how much we produce as its outside of your billable hours.

 

When at base we never get 25m3 done per day.

Like you say too much other stuff to do & interruptions.

But then I am running the business too when at base.

If you have enough staff they should be working onsite like I do on jobs.

Concentrating on one aspect of the job.

 

I think a few have said it well.

 

Either be small or very big.

In the middle its harder to make it pay.

 

Would be interesting to see just how much Pentland produce per processor per day.

I bet its well over 25m3 every day.

 

26 minutes ago, gdh said:

25+ cube in a day is easily achievable, I've done 55 before and could do more on tidy wood but it's only done with a day filling the shed, siding up logs and sharpening first. So in reality 25 cube, or whatever figure is actually done in two working days. As you say, there's a big difference between contract work and a full time business but either way the setup time is costing you.

 

Pentland have at least 4 processors and their biggest 650cm capacity does 75cube plus in a day I believe, obviously they're grading their wood ready for it to keep up effeciency.

I think its just the welsh lads have more grunt and staying power to be honest 🤣 Exception of roughy as guy must have welsh blood but there again he is a yorkshire lad tight arses.