Can I do some extra freelance work for the company I work for?

[Paddy1000111]

4 minutes ago, Moose McAlpine said:

 

At what point do you stop being labour only? Providing your own equipment?

Providing tooling, equipment, insurance, a work contract. The HMRC website has a ir35 tool that shows you. It's also about how often you get paid, who makes decisions on site, how long the contract is for bla bla bla. Either you are under IR35 as what I suppose you guys would call a freelancer who is legally required to be employed by the company and have an employment contract, a pension etc or you are outside IR35 and you are a subcontracted company

[eggsarascal]

Scroll down to section 9.

 

Important facts for contractors - off-payroll working rules (IR35) - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

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Edited December 20, 2020 by eggsarascal

[Stubby]

16 minutes ago, AHPP said:

Steve. Just take the forum down and make Arbtalk a single page site that explains the difference between labour only and bona fide subcontractors for about six months.

Add in the towing regs and it will last the rest of your life .

[Paddy1000111]

3 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

Scroll down to section 9.

 

Important facts for contractors - off-payroll working rules (IR35) - GOV.UK

WWW.GOV.UK

---

 

 

Yes, the rules do not apply to those who are self employed, that is, people who are classed as outside of the IR35 rules according to the emploment status ir35 tool. Give it a go running the tool and imagining you're a freelance climber, turning up on site in the morning and working as part of some companies team. They don't mean that if you are registered as a sole trader or ltd company that you are outside of ir35.

 

I'm not going to start an argument on IR35 as I did it all earlier this year fighting bosses of large multinational companies about how contracting will work, I won the fight, but let me summarise...

 

If you are doing what the OP wanted to do and work overtime as a freelancer basically doing his normal job but without the PAYE then this is illegal.

If you are a sole trader/ltd company and you turn up and work for someone as a freelancer labourer this is illegal

If you are doing the same job as a companies employes and work with them but as a "freelancer" this is illegal.

 

If you are a ltd company and turn up to a job and do it for them, you have all the kit and they are subcontracting jobs to you, this is legal

 

Give the ir35 employment assesment tool a crack and see what happens. It will say you are inside of IR35. It doesn't matter that you are a ltd company or a sole trader.

[eggsarascal]

14 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

Yes, the rules do not apply to those who are self employed, that is, people who are classed as outside of the IR35 rules according to the emploment status ir35 tool. Give it a go running the tool and imagining you're a freelance climber, turning up on site in the morning and working as part of some companies team. They don't mean that if you are registered as a sole trader or ltd company that you are outside of ir35.

 

I'm not going to start an argument on IR35 as I did it all earlier this year fighting bosses of large multinational companies about how contracting will work, I won the fight, but let me summarise...

 

If you are doing what the OP wanted to do and work overtime as a freelancer basically doing his normal job but without the PAYE then this is illegal.

If you are a sole trader/ltd company and you turn up and work for someone as a freelancer labourer this is illegal

If you are doing the same job as a companies employes and work with them but as a "freelancer" this is illegal.

 

If you are a ltd company and turn up to a job and do it for them, you have all the kit and they are subcontracting jobs to you, this is legal

 

Give the ir35 employment assesment tool a crack and see what happens. It will say you are inside of IR35. It doesn't matter that you are a ltd company or a sole trader.

Following your advice:

 

 

[eggsarascal]

The calculator also assumes you are working for just one main contractor, most here work for several different contractors. Makes a big difference.

 

But we are talking about insurance, not tax.

Edited December 20, 2020 by eggsarascal

[Paddy1000111]

6 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

But we are talking about insurance, not tax.

Perfect, so self employed, so you will most likely need insurance. 

The reason I brought HMRC into this and employment law is because it's the law and HMRC that will set the employment rules that the insurance company will use. 

 

I didn't want to turn this into a grudge match argument in any way about employment law. Let me make my advice simpler to the op:

 

Ask your employer to check his insurance contract and documents and see if you will be covered. Never assume, check. It's all fun and games until you drop a log on someone/something or have an accident. If it says in it that they will insure any subcontractors (as in the eyes of employment law a freelancer doesn't exist you are either an employee or a sole trader/ltd company that has a contract) then you're fine. 

[eggsarascal]

3 minutes ago, Paddy1000111 said:

Perfect, so self employed, so you will most likely need insurance. 

The reason I brought HMRC into this and employment law is because it's the law and HMRC that will set the employment rules that the insurance company will use. 

 

I didn't want to turn this into a grudge match argument in any way about employment law. Let me make my advice simpler to the op:

 

Ask your employer to check his insurance contract and documents and see if you will be covered. Never assume, check. It's all fun and games until you drop a log on someone/something or have an accident. If it says in it that they will insure any subcontractors (as in the eyes of employment law a freelancer doesn't exist you are either an employee or a sole trader/ltd company that has a contract) then you're fine. 

Yes, self employed freelancer. If I work in Mrs Miggins garden (my own job) I need insurance. If I'm in the same garden working with your men I'm a freelancer working under your instruction covered under your insurance.

[Mark Bolam]

I don’t think he’s listening Eggs.

[Paddy1000111]

2 minutes ago, eggsarascal said:

Yes, self employed freelancer. If I work in Mrs Miggins garden (my own job) I need insurance. If I'm in the same garden working with your men I'm a freelancer working under your instruction covered under your insurance.

I get what you're saying but there is no such thing as a freelancer. There's either an employee on PAYE or you are an external company who is subcontracted to provide manpower. There is no middle ground. You would only be covered by my insurance if it states that it covers external subcontractors on site. If you're working for me, with my guys, under my instruction then technically you would be under IR35.

 

Have a look what it did to the public sector, they were hit by the ir35 reforms that we are all about to be hit by. There's no such thing as a freelancer in the public sector anymore. You are either employed by the public sector on PAYE or you have to be employed by an umbrella company who pays you PAYE.