Maybe the UK should plant more....

[Stere]

Think i read somewhere nitens is only recommeded for south or coastal  due to frost tolerance although there probably some alternative euc species  better suited to up north?

 

Tempted to try a half dozen to replace some ash that has ADB....just as novelty to observe thoose mutant growth rates

 

 

 

 

[Rough Hewn]

 
Ok, land ownership issues aside, here are the issues with broadleaf production in this country:
 

• Grey squirrels. They completely decimate crops, require expensive and often unpopular control measures
• Much more expensive to establish. More waste (tubes and stakes) compared to conifer.
• Growth rates are extremely slow
• Mostly cannot be mechanically harvested, so expensive and dangerous to convert from standing trees to usable milling material
• Horrendously inconsistent quality. Shake, rot and staining is a far more prevalent issue in hardwood
• Extremely limited market. How much hardwood is actually used on a day to day basis? 
• Broadleaf production is of a much higher quality on the continent, without the issues of squirrels or having to constantly intervene with pruning, respacing, thinning in order to have a chance at a good tree. Can usually be mechanically harvested at a younger age. I visited a hardwood sawmill near my uncle's in Germany 7-8 years ago and they were able to sell kiln dried beech of excellent quality for a lower price than I could produce fresh sawn here.
• The fuelwood has a limited market as mostly unsuitable for chip production. Log production contributes to what is a largely polluting form of home heating (considering the fact that most customers don't know how to use stoves correctly, or have open fires).

 
On the flipside, consider the benefits of conifer (leaving eucalyptus aside for a moment):
 

• Grows consistently and quickly
• Grows on sites where broadleaf production would be impossible (thinking of moorland)
• Mechanically harvestable at all stages, reducing costs by 1/2 - 2/3 and improving safety
• Much broader application possibilities. Construction, fencing, cladding, pallets, paper, tetra packs, furniture, fuelwood etc
• Biodiversity in mature stands (especially douglas and larch) equal to or exceeding equivilent age broadleaf. 
• On a personal note, a mature conifer stand is something I find to be far more pleasant than a broadleaf woodland. Give me 120ft douglas and an understory any day.

 
I can go on if you want [emoji3]

All you mention here is the economics.
That’s way too easy.
Serving existing markets for cheap low grade timber.
Changing the mind set, to change the end user/recipients choice.
That’s the key.
One day we will have IKEA offering hand made uk wood products.
[emoji6][emoji106]

[Rough Hewn]

 
The UK market will never change towards longer term forestry. Britain's defining characteristic is short-termism. Look at industry in general, even the way people treat jobs as 'CV builders' only doing 18-24 months in one position.
 
Fundamentally, we don't grow good hardwoods here. Historically, perhaps we did, but that was when labour was incredibly cheap and land prices were much lower. An economic return on investment on hardwoods is virtually impossible, and certainly within the lifetime of the person planting it. It's all well and good talking about going back to a time of handmade goods, bespoke joinery and 150 year broadleaf forestry cycles but very few people are willing to sign up to that. 
 
Look at it this way. If you plant a 10 acre eucalyptus nitens plantation down here, in 10 years, you have a mature woodland of 25m plus trees, which you can enjoy as an amenity (and people do enjoy it - I've been canvassing the locals who walk the plantation I visit) and from which you can draw an ecomomic return. It's miles better than an arable field in terms of biodiversity and it provides an attractive landscape feature, as well as flood mitigation. 
 
If you were to plant a native broadleaf plantation, at 10 years you'd have a field of scrubby little 4-6m trees, no canopy cover andlong grass/brambles/bracken. You'd be starting out at the beginning of 30 years of grey squirrel control, you'd have pruning and later high pruning to undertake, tree tubes to remove and dispose of and absolutely no amenity value. You'd be committing yourself to years of work without every hoping to see a return from it. And you could be in a position (as so many are now) of putting all that work in only for it to be wiped out by something like ash dieback. 
 
Like it or not, long term forestry is a very tough proposition to sell. Trust me - part of my work is persuading landowners to plant new woodland. No one is interested because it doesn't make financial sense. Even shorter rotation crops are still a long term investment. 
 
The UK has limited space and should focus on what it is good at, which is growing timber very quickly. We can leave the higher quality timber production to the Europeans, who have a tradition of it, vastly more space to do it and for whom the trees grow perfectly with minimal intervention.

Again.
All you are saying is it’s about the economics.
Well there are ways and means to change that.
With the right government legislation, grants, funding and foresight.
Changing public awareness about their role as users of products.
There are a great many in this country who care deeply about our forests and trees.
It’ll take a long time and vast effort.
But it could be done...
[emoji106]

[Khriss]

There is a lovely video of a sawmill turning Oaks into Gunboats in WW2 (  British Council)  so yr not quite right abt that, but those millers n sawyers long gone and modern plastic done away with most boats of that size. I still think we should be pursuing the Eco side for bio diversity but the cash is in the crop as in any farming.  K

[Stere]

How bout stuff like  SC coppice (could it be machine harvested?) useful product but don't think its makes much money so they are often neglected?

 

Alot of stuff softwood is used for SC would last better.

[Stere]

Was hoping genetic engineering programs will be used  breed resitant strains of ash elm and SC unsure how realistic that is or wether its just something that needs more funding to happen.

 

They managed to make a blight restitant potato....and wheat  resitiance to mildew etc

 

[Khriss]

🐨   and it will be your fault !!   😁 K

 

( furry fvvkers) 

[Mr. Ed]

Fascinating conversation BJ & RH.
I see no discussion of conifer harvesting practice - clearfell versus continuous cover. As you know BJ the sight of apocalyptic clearfell sites is one of the reasons for the increasing hostility to conifer plantations. I suspect you’ll say that the costs of CCF management are unsustainable, to which I’d say that is an example of short-termism - just the sort of behaviour that leads to quarterly corporate targets rather than long term plans. I found the life of Talis Kalnar inspiring as an example of combining commerce and environmental concerns, and I’ve been running (or trying to run) an old family firm (in a completely different field) in that sort of way, finding the sweet spot between the two demands. 
You mentioned German beech sales - I have no idea why so many things are so expensive here! 
Also, BJ, many of your points are predicated on the assumption that importing softwood is wrong. Are you sure that’s the case? Why not import spruce from areas where it belongs? Britain has been importing timber from 

the Baltic since the 18th century. 

To make a ludicrous comparison - we could cultivate our own citrus if we built

and heated miles of greenhouses. 
Sorry for butting in - I’m an interested outsider trying to learn about this world. 
 

[doobin]

BJ. snigger 😂

[Khriss]

A lack of guidance and forward planning ( which the EU could have led the way in - but lets not mention that  now  😆 ) which with greater climate awareness might push it our way ( before I'm dead preferably)  k