Should a referendum on Scottish independence only include people living in Scotland?

[trigger_andy]

Just now, Big J said:

In principle, I don't think he's an awful person. He's just wholely unsuitable to be PM. All style, no substance.

So what you're saying is you just dont like his personality? Because he does not have, what in your opinion, is style?

 

Just now, Big J said:

Has been demostrated to be a pathological liar,

When? How do you quantify a pathological liar. Can you post up some links that prove not just him lying but to his lying on a pathological scale. 

 

1 minute ago, Big J said:

is unwilling to subject himself to any kind of scrutiny.

Because he refused to submit to Andrew Neils mauling? Is that the only example or is there more?

 

3 minutes ago, Big J said:

He's also a complete buffoon, and diminishes our standing internationally.

Well thats a matter of opinion. Its not one I share. His schooling record would beg to differ. I believe he had a scholarship to study at Eton? Its really a charade that many fall for, to their determent. 

 

5 minutes ago, Big J said:

He's also been proven to have mislead The Queen.

Big deal. Seriously.  

 

6 minutes ago, Big J said:

I object to the general Tory policy shift towards a hard Brexit.

You mean the nations reaffirmation that thats what we voted for in the first place?

 

7 minutes ago, Big J said:

I do however draw the line at making it easy for the wealthiest to pay as little as possible.

Care to quantify that comment? Id be interested to see what in the Manifesto points to that actually happening? 

 

8 minutes ago, Big J said:

And before you raise it, yes I do have an accountant, and yes I do pay as little tax as I can legally get away with. I do not however have a surplus of millions of pounds come the end of January.

So you're allowed to try and minimize your tax exposure but people better off than you are not? 

[Big J]

2 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

So what you're saying is you just dont like his personality? Because he does not have, what in your opinion, is style?

 

When? How do you quantify a pathological liar. Can you post up some links that prove not just him lying but to his lying on a pathological scale. 

 

Because he refused to submit to Andrew Neils mauling? Is that the only example or is there more?

 

Well thats a matter of opinion. Its not one I share. His schooling record would beg to differ. I believe he had a scholarship to study at Eton? Its really a charade that many fall for, to their determent. 

 

Big deal. Seriously.  

 

You mean the nations reaffirmation that thats what we voted for in the first place?

 

Care to quantify that comment? Id be interested to see what in the Manifesto points to that actually happening? 

 

So you're allowed to try and minimize your tax exposure but people better off than you are not? 

I can't be bothered to submit myself to your needlessly pathological disection of my previous post. The various points I have made in the previous post can all be easily referenced online. You know this. You're just trying to bury me in detail. It's Christmas Eve and I can't be arsed. 

 

I will add that my income is perfectly average, and I need to have an accountant anyway. I, for instance, have no means of legally avoiding corporation tax on my company's profits, so I pay 19% (falling to 18% starting April 2020). Companies such as Amazon use entirely legal loopholes to avoid this, so they (for example) paid only £14m in corporation tax on a turnover of just under £11 billion in the year ending 12/2018. I obviously understand that the UK needs the investment and employment that companies like Amazon bring, but given that Jeff Bezos is the world's richest man (despite his recent very costly divorce) he's in no morally justifiable position to withhold tax.

[trigger_andy]

6 minutes ago, Big J said:

Very interesting to see. 

 

I wouldn't dispute that Scotland has the reserves, but I'm not sure that they have the mindset to capitalise on them.

 

What would you say is the key difference between Norway and the UK in terms of the way they profit from their petrochemical reserves? The former has created an incredible amount of wealth whereas the latter has little to show from 45 years of exploration and extraction.

 

I dont see the SNP emulating Norway in the way they manage the proceeds of their reserves.  

 

Well, firstly Norway initially bartered for the rights to the Ekofisk field with a Drunk Danish Politician. He thought Oil was worthless and basically gave it away. Norway also made a point of quickly replacing Yank Drill Crews with locals (But we did the same in Scotland as well) Norway offered a sizable stake in their shelf to Sweden in return for a share of Volvo but where rebuffed.  The Government also aggressively bought out Norsk Hydro (they made heavy water in WW2). One way or another Norway seems to have landed on their feet when it comes to their reserves. 

 

So yes, Norways oil fund is huge. But its locked away, its not for Norwegians of today, but the future generations that might not have any oil left. The Oil reserves of the UK/Scotland where and continue to be squandered by Westminster. They where used to back up the UK's Credit Rating in the 70's. Scotland sees very little in way of Oil and gas revenue. Yes, Aberdeen does OK, but as soon as there is a recession or oil slump there is a line outside the Beemer and Audi Dealerships with folk handing back their keys. 

 

Norway is heavily unionized. Im in the Union. Its very very very strong. The union members have a vastly different mindset to people in the UK. British Oil workers are generally scavengers who'd steal your job as soon as look at you. They also seem to come from the quite poor backgrounds and with next to no education, much like myself. In Norway you simply dont get a job in the Oil or Oil Service industry unless you have an education, they appear to me to come from families with better backgrounds. That could be because Norway is significantly wealthier than Scotland and there is a larger pool of educated high working class/middle class young men and women to chose from? So the unions fight the Oil Companies and Oil Service Companies at every turn. We go on strike almost yearly and we win almost everything we fight for. The severe loss of standards the UK workers where forced to take in the last down-turn was fought and won by the unions. We where told the cuts where needed both sides of the water. In Norway it was proven they where not. We even got pay rises.

 

There is more to the Norwegian Continental Shelf than just Statoil Hydro. (Then just Statoil and now Equinor) there is over 30 Operators including ConicoPhilips that have the massive Ekofisk and Elfisk behemoths. BP with Valhal, Shell, ENI, ExxonMobil, Lundin, Neptune, Respol, Total and Wintershal. All these companies pay significantly more in tax to the Government than they would do in the UK. They also have to provide much better food, accommodation and rotations for the personnel. Everything the UK sector repeatedly states they cannot afford. If they can drill for oil in the exact same shelf, in the same water, in the same conditions then there is something very fishy going on where more and more operators are popping up in Norway under these more stringent conditions yet they cry poverty in the UK. 

 

But Scotland has not had a single hand in any of this. Westminster has allowed and quite happily continues to allow our reserves to be squandered. 

[Big J]

6 minutes ago, trigger_andy said:

 

I dont see the SNP emulating Norway in the way they manage the proceeds of their reserves.  

 

Well, firstly Norway initially bartered for the rights to the Ekofisk field with a Drunk Danish Politician. He thought Oil was worthless and basically gave it away. Norway also made a point of quickly replacing Yank Drill Crews with locals (But we did the same in Scotland as well) Norway offered a sizable stake in their shelf to Sweden in return for a share of Volvo but where rebuffed.  The Government also aggressively bought out Norsk Hydro (they made heavy water in WW2). One way or another Norway seems to have landed on their feet when it comes to their reserves. 

 

So yes, Norways oil fund is huge. But its locked away, its not for Norwegians of today, but the future generations that might not have any oil left. The Oil reserves of the UK/Scotland where and continue to be squandered by Westminster. They where used to back up the UK's Credit Rating in the 70's. Scotland sees very little in way of Oil and gas revenue. Yes, Aberdeen does OK, but as soon as there is a recession or oil slump there is a line outside the Beemer and Audi Dealerships with folk handing back their keys. 

 

Norway is heavily unionized. Im in the Union. Its very very very strong. The union members have a vastly different mindset to people in the UK. British Oil workers are generally scavengers who'd steal your job as soon as look at you. They also seem to come from the quite poor backgrounds and with next to no education, much like myself. In Norway you simply dont get a job in the Oil or Oil Service industry unless you have an education, they appear to me to come from families with better backgrounds. That could be because Norway is significantly wealthier than Scotland and there is a larger pool of educated high working class/middle class young men and women to chose from? So the unions fight the Oil Companies and Oil Service Companies at every turn. We go on strike almost yearly and we win almost everything we fight for. The severe loss of standards the UK workers where forced to take in the last down-turn was fought and won by the unions. We where told the cuts where needed both sides of the water. In Norway it was proven they where not. We even got pay rises.

 

There is more to the Norwegian Continental Shelf than just Statoil Hydro. (Then just Statoil and now Equinor) there is over 30 Operators including ConicoPhilips that have the massive Ekofisk and Elfisk behemoths. BP with Valhal, Shell, ENI, ExxonMobil, Lundin, Neptune, Respol, Total and Wintershal. All these companies pay significantly more in tax to the Government than they would do in the UK. They also have to provide much better food, accommodation and rotations for the personnel. Everything the UK sector repeatedly states they cannot afford. If they can drill for oil in the exact same shelf, in the same water, in the same conditions then there is something very fishy going on where more and more operators are popping up in Norway under these more stringent conditions yet they cry poverty in the UK. 

 

But Scotland has not had a single hand in any of this. Westminster has allowed and quite happily continues to allow our reserves to be squandered. 

Thank you for the very detailed reply. It's a fascinating industry, simply from a technical point of view. There are parallels between what I do and what you do, but your profession is much more complex. 

 

Do you think that an Independent Scotland would be in a better position to better manage it's oil reserves? I'm not convinced that the mindset in Scotland is conducive to emulating the Norwegian model. I would be glad to be proven wrong though.

[trigger_andy]

28 minutes ago, Big J said:

I can't be bothered to submit myself to your needlessly pathological disection of my previous post. The various points I have made in the previous post can all be easily referenced online. You know this. You're just trying to bury me in detail. It's Christmas Eve and I can't be arsed. 

Im simply replying in turn to each of the comments you make. Its as best anyone can do without a blether in the pub. If your comments dont hold up to scrutiny when broken down into sections then I think that kind of proves my point? You dont normally post unsubstantiated soundbites but you do seem to have veered off into this territory of late. I'll assume its down to lethargy due to the election results. 

 

You know as well as I do that referencing precious on-line comments is not quite as easy as that. Otherwise you'd have dug out my 'extreme right wing' comments like you said you would but then conceded.

 

34 minutes ago, Big J said:

for instance, have no means of legally avoiding corporation tax on my company's profits, so I pay 19% (falling to 18% starting April 2020).

What government brought about that reduction?

 

34 minutes ago, Big J said:

Companies such as Amazon use entirely legal loopholes to avoid this, so they (for example) paid only £14m in corporation tax on a turnover of just under £11 billion in the year ending 12/2018. I obviously understand that the UK needs the investment and employment that companies like Amazon bring, but given that Jeff Bezos is the world's richest man (despite his recent very costly divorce) he's in no morally justifiable position to withhold tax.

I dont really have an issue with taxing corporations more. Im sure its not as simplistic as that, as you allude to. But I thoght we where taking about 'rich' people and not corporations? 'Rich people' is a very subjective term, one painted by the SNP and Labour very differently than say the Tories. 

 

But yes, tax Amazon more. But then watch their prices go up and me buying less off of them and their profits drop and they'l' pay less taz again. But with the added bonus of less VAT being generated as well. I really dont know what the answer is here. 

[trigger_andy]

1 minute ago, Big J said:

Thank you for the very detailed reply. It's a fascinating industry, simply from a technical point of view. There are parallels between what I do and what you do, but your profession is much more complex. 

 

Do you think that an Independent Scotland would be in a better position to better manage it's oil reserves? I'm not convinced that the mindset in Scotland is conducive to emulating the Norwegian model. I would be glad to be proven wrong though.

 

Its a bit of a mish-mash but Ive got a baby on my lap and cant quite concentrate.  

It is a complex industry with so many support industries supporting it. I can imagine there is similarities between them, my old man was a Tree Surgeon (his words) so I have a small insight into your world. 

 

I think an independent Scotland under the SNP would squander the reserves in much the same way as Westminster, just in different ways. The SNP have touted the way Norway works as an independent country yet they dont seem to be remotely interested in emulating anything they do over there.  One point comes to mind, as Im getting it in a few days; we dont have a child minder or put our 23 month old to nursery so the Norwegian government are thankful that we are not a drain on the state funded positions and give me £750 a month for 11 months.   We applied in March and its just been approved. so we'll get all 11 months tax free in one go.  Can you imagine the SNP ever giving someone above whatever threshold they come up with anything like that back to those that pay the most in tax? 

 

I agree with your assessment, in general the Scottish mindset is gimmie gimme gimmie. We feel we deserve it, regardless if we've worked for it. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, if no one obvious is to blame it must be the English or Westminster holding us down.   The sense of entitlement of those with little or nothing to offer is staggering. 

 

If Scotland did follow the Norwegian model, and did so accurately then yes, Scotland could be a fairer and more prosperous country than it is today. It would take a long time to change the mindset of the average Scot though. Some 'right wing' standards would need put in place to get people out of the gutter of self entitlement. There would be a huge uproar over this. Ive said it before but Norway has some very stringent rules/regulations/laws that would be seen as outright right-wing.  So I just cant see any Scottish Government adopting them, because they would lose the vast majority of their sponger voter base. 

 

So we get our oil and whiskey back? Great, we'll still blow it quicker than a smackhead on benefits day. Then like a Smackhead we'll look for someone to blame. But I think if independence is worth perusing then a period of going 'cold Turkey' is needed. We really do need a massive step-change in our collective mindset and a huge slap in the face to wake ourselves up. Norway has conscription into the Armed Forces. It really changes the youth for the good. Ive seen apprentices leave as little boys and in two years return as strong men. The Government guarantee they can return to their job. If they have a mortgage thats put on hold till they come back to the workforce. There is just so many reasons why Norway works and Scotland would not. Not at first anyway, maybe in 50 years?  I still think its a worthy dream though, but under the SNP and yoked to the EU? Categorically no. 

[stihlmadasever]

If independence is to work in Scotland then the first thing to be implemented is 18-24 year old unemployed would be drafted for national service.

[trigger_andy]

Just now, stihlmadasever said:

If independence is to work in Scotland then the first thing to be implemented is 18-24 year old unemployed would be drafted for national service.

100% agree.

[Mull]

 
Its a bit of a mish-mash but Ive got a baby on my lap and cant quite concentrate. [emoji3] 
It is a complex industry with so many support industries supporting it. I can imagine there is similarities between them, my old man was a Tree Surgeon (his words) so I have a small insight into your world. 
 
I think an independent Scotland under the SNP would squander the reserves in much the same way as Westminster, just in different ways. The SNP have touted the way Norway works as an independent country yet they dont seem to be remotely interested in emulating anything they do over there.  One point comes to mind, as Im getting it in a few days; we dont have a child minder or put our 23 month old to nursery so the Norwegian government are thankful that we are not a drain on the state funded positions and give me £750 a month for 11 months. [emoji3]  We applied in March and its just been approved. so we'll get all 11 months tax free in one go. [emoji3] Can you imagine the SNP ever giving someone above whatever threshold they come up with anything like that back to those that pay the most in tax? 
 
I agree with your assessment, in general the Scottish mindset is gimmie gimme gimmie. We feel we deserve it, regardless if we've worked for it. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, if no one obvious is to blame it must be the English or Westminster holding us down. [emoji3]  The sense of entitlement of those with little or nothing to offer is staggering. 
 
If Scotland did follow the Norwegian model, and did so accurately then yes, Scotland could be a fairer and more prosperous country than it is today. It would take a long time to change the mindset of the average Scot though. Some 'right wing' standards would need put in place to get people out of the gutter of self entitlement. There would be a huge uproar over this. Ive said it before but Norway has some very stringent rules/regulations/laws that would be seen as outright right-wing.  So I just cant see any Scottish Government adopting them, because they would lose the vast majority of their sponger voter base. 
 
So we get our oil and whiskey back? Great, we'll still blow it quicker than a smackhead on benefits day. Then like a Smackhead we'll look for someone to blame. But I think if independence is worth perusing then a period of going 'cold Turkey' is needed. We really do need a massive step-change in our collective mindset and a huge slap in the face to wake ourselves up. Norway has conscription into the Armed Forces. It really changes the youth for the good. Ive seen apprentices leave as little boys and in two years return as strong men. The Government guarantee they can return to their job. If they have a mortgage thats put on hold till they come back to the workforce. There is just so many reasons why Norway works and Scotland would not. Not at first anyway, maybe in 50 years?  I still think its a worthy dream though, but under the SNP and yoked to the EU? Categorically no. 

Mostly you talk perfect sense Andy, although you often do it in an ‘absolute tosser’ sort of fashion.
Where do you see Scottish independence coming from if not through the vehicle of the snp?

[Mull]

If independence is to work in Scotland then the first thing to be implemented is 18-24 year old unemployed would be drafted for national service.

Yep, agree with that, a great leveller.
Quite expensive to taxpayer though.