Should a referendum on Scottish independence only include people living in Scotland?

[daltontrees]

2 hours ago, Johnsond said:

The arrogance and edge on the guy was disgusting and it’s blatantly obvious they see the election result as a green light to do what they want regardless of the numbers ie less than half the electorate having voted SNP. I just wish they would get on with running the country and doing the job they are paid to do. 

You could just as well be talking about conservatives in Westminster, who only got 40 something %...

I am no lover of the SNP givernment, but I'd rather we made an arse of things ourselves up here than have an arse made of it for us down there. We'd grow up quick enough. I think it's a mistake to assume that post-independence SNP would be in charge. Voting for independence is not the same as voting for SNP.

On the other hand voting for SNP IS voting for independence. And, if the SNP can take anything from the landslide it's probably that there's Scottish support for an independent Scotland in the EU. SNP would be nuts to assume support for independence outside EU.

Persnally I reckon Scotland outside UK would have struggled. Inside UK and outsde EU it definitley will. Outside UK and in EU would be a strong niche opportunity and we'd do OK.

What really f****ed me off more than anything else in the run-up to the election was leaflets and Facebook adverts from the torys saying vote for them to block a referendum. A 5 year old could work out that that's because they feared losing a referendum. If they are confident of persuading Scotland to stay in the UK they should allow a referendum. And allow it very soon. No matter what they do now about Brexit, every stumble, downturn and economic casualty of Brexit (or pereived to be) will be resented by a large part of Scotland. It will become a festering sore that will not heal itself.

I have spoken to hundreds of fellow Scots from all waks of life inteh last few days, and I am genuinely surprised at the near-universal resentment of people up here. I have a close relative who is an economics lecturer who was dead against independence a few years ago, but now would vote the other way. We debate it on impassionate economic grounds and for him to change his mind based on the behaviour of the tories in Wesminster since the Brexit referendum speaks volumes to me. It's not about FREEDOM, it's about refusing to sign the English economic suicide pact.

And to answer the original question, I'd love to see an indicative pan-UK vote on Scottish independence. I bet England would ditch Scotland (and Northern Ireland) on economic grounds.

[Guest Gimlet]

1 hour ago, daltontrees said:

....there's Scottish support for an independent Scotland in the EU. 

Contradiction in terms.

[daltontrees]

5 minutes ago, Gimlet said:

Contradiction in terms.

Try "There's support in Scotland for Scotland to be independent of the UK AND a member of the EU."

[Johnsond]

1 hour ago, daltontrees said:

You could just as well be talking about conservatives in Westminster, who only got 40 something %...

I am no lover of the SNP givernment, but I'd rather we made an arse of things ourselves up here than have an arse made of it for us down there. We'd grow up quick enough. I think it's a mistake to assume that post-independence SNP would be in charge. Voting for independence is not the same as voting for SNP.

On the other hand voting for SNP IS voting for independence. And, if the SNP can take anything from the landslide it's probably that there's Scottish support for an independent Scotland in the EU. SNP would be nuts to assume support for independence outside EU.

Persnally I reckon Scotland outside UK would have struggled. Inside UK and outsde EU it definitley will. Outside UK and in EU would be a strong niche opportunity and we'd do OK.

What really f****ed me off more than anything else in the run-up to the election was leaflets and Facebook adverts from the torys saying vote for them to block a referendum. A 5 year old could work out that that's because they feared losing a referendum. If they are confident of persuading Scotland to stay in the UK they should allow a referendum. And allow it very soon. No matter what they do now about Brexit, every stumble, downturn and economic casualty of Brexit (or pereived to be) will be resented by a large part of Scotland. It will become a festering sore that will not heal itself.

I have spoken to hundreds of fellow Scots from all waks of life inteh last few days, and I am genuinely surprised at the near-universal resentment of people up here. I have a close relative who is an economics lecturer who was dead against independence a few years ago, but now would vote the other way. We debate it on impassionate economic grounds and for him to change his mind based on the behaviour of the tories in Wesminster since the Brexit referendum speaks volumes to me. It's not about FREEDOM, it's about refusing to sign the English economic suicide pact.

And to answer the original question, I'd love to see an indicative pan-UK vote on Scottish independence. I bet England would ditch Scotland (and Northern Ireland) on economic grounds.

SNP has been in in power with a devolved parliament for how long ??? So I’d say the opportunity to keep blaming others is getting less and less. 

Not interested in what conservatives got as they are not trying to break up the union plus I live in Aberdeenshire. 

The SNP landslide is still not even half the vote !!. 

As for a referendum soon, me personally I’d much rather politicians buggered off and just done what they are paid too for a little while, I’m tired of votes and referendum etc. 

Funny how opinions differ as nearly everyone I know or work with has no time for SNP or indyref 2, 

how do you know it’s a economic suicide pact ????? Staying within the EU is not helping Scotland or  anyone else in the long run. What is this niche you talk of ???. Sturgeon had said she wants higher immigration etc etc all that benefits is big business not our young people. Tories in Westminster are you kidding I’d say the opposition including the SNP have tried overwhelmingly to derail it from day one. We are not going to agree on much you are obviously pro independence I am a unionist. The opinion of you’re relative the economist type is irrelevant, I was always told those who can do it, those who can’t teach it, there is a strong group of SNP support coming from the likes of those in the face book screen grabs I put up. As for the certainty with which you think the vote would go south of border. Well I’d disagree as based upon years of personal experience I’d say there is far more anti English rhetoric from Scots than anti Scottish from the English. Sturgeon and the sharp tongue of hers is responsible for generating a whole load of negativity and not much else. Do not confuse Westminster with the rest of the uk. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Johnsond

[Johnsond]

1 minute ago, daltontrees said:

Try "There's support in Scotland for Scotland to be independent of the UK AND a member of the EU."

Madness 

Unlimited  uncontrolled immigration, total legislative control from Europe etc etc etc forced acceptance of the Euro. I could go on and on but it won’t matter no doubt. Solution for me is already in the planning stages. Shame as me the mrs and kids are happy where we are but I will not be staying put if you’re dream scenario materialises. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Johnsond

[daltontrees]

Just now, Johnsond said:

Madness 

I'm not advocating it, I am saying that I gauge support for it.

[Guest Gimlet]

6 minutes ago, daltontrees said:

Try "There's support in Scotland for Scotland to be independent of the UK AND a member of the EU."

That isn't what you wrote. 

[daltontrees]

5 minutes ago, Johnsond said:

SNP has bee in in power with a devolved parliament for how long ??? So I’d say the opportunity to keep blaming others is getting less and less. 

Not interested in what conservatives got as they are not trying to break up the union plus I live in Aberdeenshire. 

The SNP landslide is still not even half the vote !!. 

As for a referendum soon, me personally I’d much rather politicians buggered off and just done what they are paid too for a while, I’m tired of votes and referendum etc. 

Funny how opinions differ as nearly everyone I know or work with has no time for SNP or indyref 2, 

how fo you know it’s a economic suicide pact ????? Staying within the EU is not helping Scotland or  anyone else in the long run. What is this niche you talk of ???. Sturgeon had said she wants higher immigration etc etc all that benefits is big business not our young people. Tories in Westminster are you kidding I’d say the opposition including the SNP have tried overwhelmingly to derail it from day one. We are not going to agree on much you are obviously pro independence I am a unionist. The opinion of you’re relative the economist type is irrelevant, I was always told those who can do it, those who can’t teach it, there is a strong group of SNP support coming from the likes of those in the face book screen grabs I put up. As for the certainty with which you think the vote would go south of border. Well I’d disagree as based upon years of personal experience I’d say there is far more anti English rhetoric from Scots than anti Scottish from the English. Sturgeon and the sharp tongue of hers is responsible for generating a whole load of negativity and not much else. Do not confuse Westminster with the rest of the uk. 

A glance at the map of votes is going to explain that where you are there is a strong tory leaning and where I am is strong SNP. That cna explain why we are gauging different opinions.

 

I don't see point in debating the pros and cons of independence and EU with you, as you seem to be strongly partisan. Even though I didn't say I was pro-independence you have assumed I am. Your comment about my relative, is trite. He was a professor at the leading economic institution in Scotland, and spent a lifetime being paid by industry to advise them on strategic direction and specifics. That counts as 'doing'. Also you are perhaps suggesting that those who don't teach, 'can', which is patently untrue.

 

The original question in this post, which no-one really addressed, was whether only scots should vote on independence. I tried to answer it in a very specific way, relating to the economic rationale for England keeping Scotland. We are constantly told that England supports Scotland financially . If the English poplation could vote confidentially and were told that England supports Scotland to the tune of £4,000 per capita or whatever the figure is, I think they'd say drop Scotland. Despite what you say, I didn't express certainty, but I'd certainly bet on it.

 

We can agree to disagree, as we may never get to find out, and it is futile to argue about politics on the internet with strangers, it never changes anyone's opinion and only neds with someone misinterpreting or pouncing on minutiae.

[daltontrees]

15 minutes ago, Gimlet said:

That isn't what you wrote. 

I know. That's why I clarified it....

[Johnsond]

11 minutes ago, daltontrees said:

A glance at the map of votes is going to explain that where you are there is a strong tory leaning and where I am is strong SNP. That cna explain why we are gauging different opinions.

 

I don't see point in debating the pros and cons of independence and EU with you, as you seem to be strongly partisan. Even though I didn't say I was pro-independence you have assumed I am. Your comment about my relative, is trite. He was a professor at the leading economic institution in Scotland, and spent a lifetime being paid by industry to advise them on strategic direction and specifics. That counts as 'doing'. Also you are perhaps suggesting that those who don't teach, 'can', which is patently untrue.

 

The original question in this post, which no-one really addressed, was whether only scots should vote on independence. I tried to answer it in a very specific way, relating to the economic rationale for England keeping Scotland. We are constantly told that England supports Scotland financially . If the English poplation could vote confidentially and were told that England supports Scotland to the tune of £4,000 per capita or whatever the figure is, I think they'd say drop Scotland. Despite what you say, I didn't express certainty, but I'd certainly bet on it.

 

We can agree to disagree, as we may never get to find out, and it is futile to argue about politics on the internet with strangers, it never changes anyone's opinion and only neds with someone misinterpreting or pouncing on minutiae.

Nope you are right we probs won’t agree and judging by all you wrote most people would tend to class you as pro snp and independence. Can’t really be arsed to debate anything to tell truth as Ive just come off a 13 hr night shift, for which I have the pleasure of giving 41% plus NI of it to our wonderful  devolved parliament, substantially more than the English guys on the same team I might add but at least I know the SNP will spend it wisely ??