Oak tree - virus/bacteria/infection?

[openspaceman]

5 hours ago, Mick Dempsey said:

As others have said get a guy with letters after his name in to have a look and write out a report.

 

I agreed with all you said up till this point. A full arb report will cost in the same ball park as a fell and remove to ground level and is a luxury I'd reserve for trees with great amenity value. This one has structural problems, the roots are damaging the sidewalk and wall plus it is a tall vigorous tree that is getting too large for a small front garden.

 

Plus it is a turkey oak ?

[Mick Dempsey]

19 minutes ago, openspaceman said:

I agreed with all you said up till this point. A full arb report will cost in the same ball park as a fell and remove to ground level and is a luxury I'd reserve for trees with great amenity value. This one has structural problems, the roots are damaging the sidewalk and wall plus it is a tall vigorous tree that is getting too large for a small front garden.

 

Plus it is a turkey oak ?

You’re right of course (re. relative costs) but for this guy, who wants a truly impartial opinion, it’s his best option.

[openspaceman]

32 minutes ago, Mick Dempsey said:

You’re right of course (re. relative costs) but for this guy, who wants a truly impartial opinion, it’s his best option.

Fairy nuff and it's your old stomping ground

[Mick Dempsey]

Included bark, not if but when.

[Mick Dempsey]

1 hour ago, EdwardC said:

Getting good impartial advice is key. You cannot remove risk completely. Assessing the risk of harm and giving the tree owner options on how to manage the tree is the way forward. The owner needs to know the costs, benefits and risks in order to make an informed decision on their tree.

 

Driving to the job and dismantling the tree presents a higher risk than a tree with a stable included union per-se.

 

Included unions fail incrementally. Checking reguarly will highlight any failing union, allowing action to be taken in a timely manner.

 

I'm not sure the pictures have any relvance. Different tree, with no information on management/inspection regime or anything else. I can show you pictures of included unions that haven't failed. I can show pictures of crashed cars, but it doesn't mean all cars are going to crash.

Couple of points.

 

You say that included unions fail incrementally, I don’t think that’s right at all, when they go they tend to go completely.

They often go unnoticed as the tree is ostensibly in rude health.

This tree in the picture was the result of a storm, a common occurrence in that unusual wind will expose the fault and cause the failure.

I don’t think posting a picture of an included union failure in a thread where we’re talking included unions is irrelevant at all.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Mick Dempsey

[Mick Dempsey]

I can’t do the split quote thing so my reply will have to wait, sorry.

9 minutes ago, EdwardC said:

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Mick Dempsey

[Wedgebanger]

I have to say most home owners, walk blindly pass a tree, just don’t see it..changing or about to happen or even a windy storm rolls in the winter, 

and that’s  not being rude to the OP or anyone else. 

Also homeowners may find the next inspection adding up and up.. the cost does count up eventually.. unlike councils most peeps has smaller disposable incomes.

 

however, cable bracing should help over a longer  period  time and a bit  more peace of mind.. in those windy nites. 

 

Every ones mileage will vary, that’s why it’s good to air all the options that are available to the OP.. but it’s in the OP point of view it should follow not throw cash at in the direction of a inspection every ....however long..

 

[Paul Cleaver]

21 hours ago, EdwardC said:

 

 

So the failure was the result of an Act of God and therefore unpredictable. Any tree, or part thereof, could fail in such circumstances. Assessing a trees liklihood of failure is done by considering the liklihood of failure under normal circumstances. Not could it fail under any circumstances.  

If there was a serious accident involving an inclusion failure, I for one if a surveyed the tree, would not be looking forward to the court case!!

 

Quote

If there was a serious accident involving an inclusion failure, I for one if I surveyed the tree, would not be looking forward to the court case!!

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Paul Cleaver

[Paul Cleaver]

1 hour ago, EdwardC said:

The  NTSG [National Tree Safety Group] believes that  one fundamental concept should underlie the management of risks from trees. It is that the evaluation of what is reasonable should be based upon a balance between benefit and risk. This evaluation can be undertaken only in a local context, since trees provide many different types of benefit in a range of different circumstances. The NTSG position is underpinned by a set of five key principles:

●trees  provide a wide  variety  of  benefits  to society ●trees are living organisms that naturally  lose  branches or  fall

●the overall risk to human safety is extremely low

●tree owners have a legal duty  of  care

●tree owners should take a balanced and proportionate approach to tree safety management.

 

NTSG Common Sense Risk Management of Trees

 

The National Tree Safety Group has publications produced by the Forestry Commission to provide guidance on trees and public safety in the UK

NTSGROUP.ORG.UK

---

The National Tree Safety Group has three publications that have been...

 

Key words are; reasonable, balanced, cost, benefit, proportionate.

 

Quote -trees  provide a wide  variety  of  benefits  to society ●trees are living organisms that naturally  lose  branches or  fall 

Immaterial in the context of the discussion.

 

Quote-the overall risk to human safety is extremely low.

It is, but the risk can be considerably greater depending on the "defect" found 

 

Quote - tree owners have a legal duty  of  care

And in doing so, will go to reasonable lengths to make this so, by calling on the service of a tree surveyor/consultant.

 

Quote - tree owners should take a balanced and proportionate approach to tree safety management.

that's wishy washy - In court they don't like wishy washy especially if there has been a serious accident.

 

It can be a lottery in court even if you know you are right! Its more about who can convince Judge and Jury who is more believable.

There was a case where the defendant (a tree consultant who wont be named) decided to represent himself against professional advise, thinking he would win. The prosecutions barrister did what barristers do best and won the case.

 I wouldn't like an inclusion failure on a tree in an area of risk, on a tree I have surveyed.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Paul Cleaver
quote

[Andrew McEwan]

On 27/10/2019 at 19:26, EdwardC said:

They do. But you only see them after they've failed, usually after a storm, not under normal circumstances, and not having reguarly inspected them.

 

That is a failure of the inspection. The structural integrity of an included fork is unlikely to affect the vitality of the tree. You cannot assume that because a tree looks healthy there are no structural defects, you have to look for them.

 

So the failure was the result of an Act of God and therefore unpredictable. Any tree, or part thereof, could fail in such circumstances. Assessing a trees liklihood of failure is done by considering the liklihood of failure under normal circumstances. Not could it fail under any circumstances.

 

But you were giving the impression that failure is inevitable and could happen any time. It's not, and it's unlikely to, under normal circumstances, unless the union has commenced failing, and that should be picked up by the informed tree owner or at the next inspection.

 

When assessing the tree the question the inspector has to ask themselves is, is the tree, or part thereof, likely, under normal circumstances, to fail before the next inspection. Answer no, then move on. Answer yes, then provide advice on what could be done to manage the risk giving the tree owner options.

Given there are likely to be folk new to inspection work reading this it is worth pointing out that no reasonable inspection regime could pick up all incremental failures, and I'm sure as Mick says many of us have seen included union failures happen, without any incremental signs of unions opening on trees we are very familiar with. I wouldn't expect the act of god defence to be effective.