Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[Jake Andrews]

Hi jake, interesting to read that irata 1 is only 4 days training. Level 2 another 4 days training plus 1000 logged hours. Whereas we do cs30/31 about 5 days, plus 38/39 which is about 8 more days training. Total is 13 days which is more than level 2 irata. The big difference then is really the 1000hrs supervised hours and the fact that you get 38/39 then can just go it alone as a tree surgeon. J.

Yeh that’s kind of my point. On site training is key but there doesn’t seem to be enough experienced guys to train the ‘newbies’ well. This then puts then on the back foot from the off and makes them unappealing to good outfits when they are hiring. At current, as you say, we can under go a few weeks training and then start our own firm. Im Sure it’s worked for some but I have built my skills learning from various different people. Definitely would not have the same skill set now if I would have gone on my own straight from college.

[Jake Andrews]

Schedule 5 of the working at height regulations.

It’s this document that the HSE have deemed we are in breach of. All the ICOP has appeared to have done is recite the same lines as the regulations but they are still not clear to the end user.

[Khriss]

@Jake i would take issue with on the job training as have been many times asked to 'bring the lad on' and 'learn him all you know' *

I am expected to do actual tree work for my wage - not keep looking over my shoulder every minute. If the boss wants him trained - i will train him ( obvs seperately from work) if boss wants job done on time - an experienced man is required. Not me working a junior into shape. 

I hear a lot of incidents occuring with inexperienced climbers. So we are back to the training status of the UK. 

 

K

 

* obvs after i have shown him how to make tea properly n roll my fag. He is qualified to my high industry standard. 

[Jake Andrews]

@Jake i would take issue with on the job training as have been many times asked to 'bring the lad on' and 'learn him all you know' *

I am expected to do actual tree work for my wage - not keep looking over my shoulder every minute. If the boss wants him trained - i will train him ( obvs seperately from work) if boss wants job done on time - an experienced man is required. Not me working a junior into shape. 

I hear a lot of incidents occuring with inexperienced climbers. So we are back to the training status of the UK. 

 

K

 

* obvs after i have shown him how to make tea properly n roll my fag. He is qualified to my high industry standard. 

 

I totally get your point K as I have also been in your position many times before. But imagine you were classed as an upper tier arborist of some sort and part of your job description was to train the young lads as Well as supervise the site. You would be paid accordingly for your skill level.

Subbies would also be tiered perhaps weaning many of them out.

Whilst training is poor, I don’t think that we will ever have a system where ‘newbies’ will be able to work from the off. Some on site training will always be required and the boss will always expect this if you.

[Khriss]

@Jake Andrews  and i will be presenting him with Moon on a Stick winner of the year. Oddly its the one he wants 'bringing on' who is the most inept retard who no-one wants to work with! Stop employing idiots in our field is a good answer - probly reduce accident rates fr HSE too. K

PS we are moving away from that one bloke - three jobs model in Rail as it ( wait for it)  'causes too many Near-Miss incidents' 

Edited December 29, 2019 by Khriss
Ta daaaaaah!

[TIMON]

Just throwing this into the mix...,
What about some good guidance and advice from the HSE guy (that can be written into the ICOP and technical guides) about the various situations when 2 ropes are not reasonably practicable.....
I’m happy to use a second system when it works and is practical.
I’m sorry... but when people start talking about using fall arrest systems in tree work, I feel that we are completely losing our way.

[Khriss]

Quite simply a fall- arrest device ( bungee pack) wont stop you clanging into a branch below an 'splitting yr difference' and neither will a slack second rope when you cut yr tight first  rope....... ? k

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

2 hours ago, TIMON said:

Just throwing this into the mix...,
What about some good guidance and advice from the HSE guy (that can be written into the ICOP and technical guides) about the various situations when 2 ropes are not reasonably practicable.....
I’m happy to use a second system when it works and is practical.
I’m sorry... but when people start talking about using fall arrest systems in tree work, I feel that we are completely losing our way.
 

Lions, donkeys & dinosaurs Ti ?

[TIMON]

Lions, donkeys & dinosaurs Ti [emoji2]

It’s on my read list. [emoji106]

[Jake Andrews]

Quite simply a fall- arrest device ( bungee pack) wont stop you clanging into a branch below an 'splitting yr difference' and neither will a slack second rope when you cut yr tight first  rope....... [emoji54] k

But there are devices out there that don’t require a bugee strop such as the CAMP goblin. I just don’t think there are practical around the canopy or can handle the same rope deviations we do in a canopy. I do think however they would be very good for spar work where all branches are removed and you don’t have to move 2 systems down each time.