Background to the HSE decision on two rope working

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

2 minutes ago, Marc said:

Nothing vague about Tony, with immediate effect you should be on two climbing ropes...

Hope you are keeping well.

so with the work position lanyard three anchors in operation?

[Marc]

On 07/12/2019 at 15:55, Craig Johnson said:

its a sport

Well I thought the comps were about demonstrating industry skill.

gear check has to be carried out in line with PPE regs, this includes climbing on CE approved equipment only, being an industrial event sponsored by AA I would expect two ropes to be mandatory... in line with icop

[Mick Dempsey]

2 minutes ago, Tony Croft aka hamadryad said:

so with the work position lanyard three anchors in operation?

As I understand it, yes.

[Marc]

Just now, Tony Croft aka hamadryad said:

so with the work position lanyard three anchors in operation?

If you need to prevent pendulum swing or achieve stable positioning then yes lanyard too.

the whole things is just abstract and weird. I have no idea how I am going to enforce this.

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

19 minutes ago, Marc said:

If you need to prevent pendulum swing or achieve stable positioning then yes lanyard too.

the whole things is just abstract and weird. I have no idea how I am going to enforce this.

 nobody is gonna enforce that on me! I Use three anchors in very special circumstances and maybe those circumstances have arisen half a dozen times in my long career! 32 years now to be exact. This ruling is not only absurd but just proves how distant those making the rules are from the coal face reality of arboricultural practice.

[Marc]

5 minutes ago, Tony Croft aka hamadryad said:

 nobody is gonna enforce that on me! I Use three anchors in very special circumstances and maybe those circumstances have arisen half a dozen times in my long career! 32 years now to be exact. This ruling is not only absurd but just proves how distant those making the rules are from the coal face reality of arboricultural practice.

Well it’s the law and apparently has been since 2005. You are right no one can force you, you will be in breach of the regulations.

The issue as I see it, is the WAH regs are to broad and all encompassing, I feel we need to look at trying to have an exemption in Arb, but that’s to difficult, it’s easier to write new TG’s and ICOPs and say get on with it than actually change HSE regulations that you only find in the UK. 
Personally I blame Brussels ?

[Bolt]

45 minutes ago, Marc said:

Personally I blame Brussels ? 
 

I blame the European Temporary Work at Height Directive (2001/45/EEC)

[Svts]

On 01/09/2019 at 20:41, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

Apologies all, there's much background tbh and my colleague Simon, who wrote the article, tried to cover all bases.

In a nutshell the HSE would expect to see 2x independent lines, and independent anchors, such that one system can act as a robust backup in the event of the other being damaged or becoming detached and the climber falling. 

In terms of timescales this is not gonna happen overnight and, in all honesty, nothing is likely to 'start to' change until the industry code of practice (ICoP) is amended and 'Technical Guide 1 - Tree Ascent and Descent' is released. As you rightly mention training, and assessment, will have to change to and existing operators will have to change their MO to comply with the law (effectively.) In his article Simon likened this to the industry's equivalent to seat belts being intro'd. so gonna be years rather than months.

Does this help clarify things...a little?

Thanks for asking Kevin and I hope you;re well

Paul

Training and assement need go change drastically if AA and the hse are really serious about improving things. I've lost count of the number of fully certified climbers I've worked with that lack basic skills and knowledge. 

Passing the rigging ticket after a few months of brash dragging for a utility company shouldn't happen, but it does (a lot from what I've seen). 

Really poor tree ident leading to no knowledge of timbers strengths and weaknesses. No apparent time restrictions on tests allowing very poor candidates to pass aerial rescue cert. They are then often left in charge of the most time critical climb anyone will ever be asked to do. 

These are just a few of the issues that directly stem from the inbuilt faults within the arb training industry. 

The Nptc is just a money making machine. Administered by the same people that make a nice living from continuously churning people out in the shortest time possible. 

The two rope issue is such a silly distraction from the real problems that the AA should be addressing with the hse. Frankly I wonder if the AA is fit for purpose as it stands. 

I for one will still only use two anchors if the tree dictates it. Managed 25 plus years without cutting my line or breaking an anchor point out, sure I'll manage a few more. 

The situation is a joke. Proper education/training is the cornerstone the industry needs, Not more rules to protect the hopeless climbers pumped out by the current training system. 

Apologies for going on but it's become frustrating to see the industry ruined from within. 

 

[Tony Croft aka hamadryad]

4 minutes ago, Svts said:

Training and assement need go change drastically if AA and the hse are really serious about improving things. I've lost count of the number of fully certified climbers I've worked with that lack basic skills and knowledge. 

Passing the rigging ticket after a few months of brash dragging for a utility company shouldn't happen, but it does (a lot from what I've seen). 

Really poor tree ident leading to no knowledge of timbers strengths and weaknesses. No apparent time restrictions on tests allowing very poor candidates to pass aerial rescue cert. They are then often left in charge of the most time critical climb anyone will ever be asked to do. 

These are just a few of the issues that directly stem from the inbuilt faults within the arb training industry. 

The Nptc is just a money making machine. Administered by the same people that make a nice living from continuously churning people out in the shortest time possible. 

The two rope issue is such a silly distraction from the real problems that the AA should be addressing with the hse. Frankly I wonder if the AA is fit for purpose as it stands. 

I for one will still only use two anchors if the tree dictates it. Managed 25 plus years without cutting my line or breaking an anchor point out, sure I'll manage a few more. 

The situation is a joke. Proper education/training is the cornerstone the industry needs, Not more rules to protect the hopeless climbers pumped out by the current training system. 

Apologies for going on but it's become frustrating to see the industry ruined from within. 

 

feeling it bro, im glad i left the u.k scene!

[Svts]

4 minutes ago, Tony Croft aka hamadryad said:

feeling it bro, im glad i left the u.k scene!

Haha for sure! I've largely gone back to full time forestry now. Still do the odd arb job if it's interesting enough. Find most arb a bit dull these days tbh.