TPO Application time......

[swinny]

Im pretty pissed off to be fair, i sent a tpo app in first of april.... they said registered 14th, rang them up and said you had it on the 1st and we shouldnt miss out on 2 weeks. They agreed to back date it to the first. 

 

Letter said decision by 10th june!!!! 10th june comes ran up later that week, they havent even been out to look at the tree yet. 

 

Rang last thurs 11th July and they still havent been out yet. Piss taking sods.

 

any advice? Im annoyed but customer will be seething!

[openspaceman]

46 minutes ago, EdwardC said:

You can't appeal a S211 to PIN's.

 

The six weeks notification starts on the first full day after the notice is served. If the trees aren't subsequently TPO'd you can undertake the works in your notice once the six-week period expires.

 

When serving an S211 you do not need to provide a report, or justify your proposal. You just need to ensure it is clear which tree(s) your notice relates to, and what you want to do.

 

An application under a TPO will be validated once the council consider it contains sufficient information to determine it. The clock starts on the day the application is validated. You can appeal to PIN's after eight weeks if the council haven't determined the application. PIN's will make their decision on the basis of the information provided to support the application.

Either my writing is poor or your comprehension is.

 

The first point I was  querying is that the applicant (not me the chap I work for occasionally) says the same form is used for notifying work in a conservation area or applying for permission to work on a tree with a preservation order. If so he says you cannot get past the bit which requests an expert report. Which is why  he posted a notification rather than do it online. I haven't tried.

 

The other thing was  pertaining to what qualification is a requirement for a tree report when applying to work on a tree with a preservation order.

 

On the surface it looks like a restrictive practice dreamt up by planners to give jobs for the boys. A tree report by our local TO  with his consultancy hat on starts at £500.

[Khriss]

Get an 'expert' report then. Anyone with a Tech cert or TI Lantra could sign it off. You must know someone? K

[openspaceman]

12 hours ago, Khriss said:

Get an 'expert' report then. Anyone with a Tech cert or TI Lantra could sign it off. You must know someone? K

No need I'm not applying to do work on a preserved tree, just  musing.

 

I hope Gary is on holiday enjoying himself as he normally makes good replies.

[Khriss]

1 hour ago, openspaceman said:

No need I'm not applying to do work on a preserved tree, just  musing.

 

I hope Gary is on holiday enjoying himself as he normally makes good replies.

I'll call it 80 squid then , fr the technical offer k

[Gary Prentice]

On 14/07/2019 at 16:46, openspaceman said:

Just revisiting this @Gary Prentice: does the time of 8 weeks for non determination only start after the application  is validated? That's a good question, and an argument that I've had a few times when the LA has taken 2-3 weeks to actually get around to sending a letter out. The way that I read the legislation/blue book/guidelines - it's the date of submission. Otherwise it would become nonsensical if the LA delayed the process by just not validating a TPO App for a number of weeks. 

After one lengthy delay in validating a perfectly sufficient app of mine, along with moving the determination period to match, I asked for the deadline to be set back to suit the date of my original application. After all, it isn't my fault if they take 3-4 weeks to validate. The LA ignored my protest and refused to do so, but determined the application within eight weeks of my submission date anyway, so I didn't get the opportunity to take it to PINs to see what they thought.

 

I'm a bit interested as my boss has just tried to make a 211 notification via the planning portal, in fact he gave up and handed it in by letter. I'm not surprised, I've found it quite difficult myself to get to grips with for 211 notice submissions. The PP sometimes feels that you're using a 'service' to do something that it wasn't really designed for.

 

He says what it showed was that an application via the portal cannot proceed without a tree report and that has to be by someone with a "qualification". So no point trying to make a notification as it seems to use the same criteria as needed for a TPO application. That's quite a common complaint because of the way the programme is set up. I've read that other notifiers simply send a blank page pdf (marked as 'Blank Page') for unnecessary sections that have to be submitted before you're 'allowed' to proceed and work your way through the website.

 

In a past job I seldom worried about TPOs as we were working on behalf of a statutory undertaking, I'd liaise with the TO and then getb on with the work.

 

My friend says he writes a report and signs it off and it's never queried, he has a BSc in geology. 

 

So if the application gets made, is validated and then the report is queried does everything have to go back to day one? Or will the PINS judgement  take no note of a poor reason for the work. The way it should work, for a TPO application, is that initially the LA shouldn't validate the application if the 'reasons for work section, isn't completed i.e the application is incomplete, so theoretically PINs wouldn't accept any subsequent appeal.

As I understand it, the only time when the LA can reasonably expect/demand a report is when the reasons for the work is due to either a claim that the tree is;

• causing damage  either to underground services or a building due to tree-related subsidence. 
• Unsafe, where a suitably qualified arboriculturists report is necessary.  I image that if it's so blindingly obvious, to the man on the Clapham Omnibus, that the tree is in imminent danger of failure that sense would prevail that this 'requirement' would be simply put aside as an unreasonable unnecessary additional expense to the tree owner.

 

PS. Sorry for the delay, I took a week of bed-rest convalescing.

[openspaceman]

2 hours ago, Gary Prentice said:

PS. Sorry for the delay, I took a week of bed-rest convalescing.

Gary it was worth the wait  and just the sort of reply I was hoping for.

 

Sad you weren't enjoying a holiday somewhere more exotic than bed-rest but  good to see you on form.

[Spideylj]

There's two aspects to some of the questions here.

 

For s211, work in Conservation Areas you do not need to submit a full application.  Although you can do it with the 1app/planning portal form.  However, you can simply do it by letter so long as you make it clear what work is to be undertaken and the tree is easily identifiable.  If the application is a bit vague then the TO should contact the applicant/agent to clarify the work.  As there is no validation for a s211 notice the clock starts when the LPA get that application.  The LPA have three options these are:

• Give consent for the works to go ahead.
• Put a TPO on the tree (this should only be done if the work is unacceptable).
• Do nothing.

If the LPA have not given a decision or TPO'd the tree within SIX weeks.  Then the arborist can go ahead with the work.

 

Check with your local TO about how they will accept s211 notices.  I will accept emails from arborists working in our area.

 

The TPO application and determination is a bit more complicated.  There is EIGHT weeks to determine the application.  However, the clock starts on this one when the application is determined as valid.  The determination of validity should be done within 3 days but this is good practice rather than law.  In order for the application to be valid it must:

• Be on the standard form;
• include information required by the form;
• be accompanied by a plan which clearly identified the tree or trees on which work is proposed;
• be accompanied by such information as is necessary to clearly specify the work for which consent is sought;
• state the reasons for making the application; and
• be accompanied, as applicable, by appropriate evidence describing any structural damage to property or in relation to tree health and safety.

(Government Guidance Notes paragraph 65)

 

These are called the necessary requirements and the LPA cannot validate the application without them.  If the application is determined invalid there is a right of appeal through PINS.

 

So really, without a tree report the LPA shouldn't validate the application.  However, that being said I do take a more pragmatic view.  I do believe that it shouldn't be too onerous on the applicant or their agent (the arborist).  If the arborist demonstrates that they have clearly looked at the tree properly and write notes to that effect then I am more than happy to accept that.  The problem comes when the work to the tree is unacceptable or damage caused is ambiguous.  That's when you may need to call for independent reports.

 

The assessment of an application should not be a desk top exercise.  The TO should visit the site.  With the bulk of my applications I have either been out on site with the arborist beforehand or I go and have a look in the validation period.  As I can not validate the application within the '3 days' due to my working pattern, I tend to stretch this to a week.  Obviously, I let the arborist know that I have received the application.  If I agree with the arborists findings then the application goes through.  If not we have a chat.

 

Sorry if you have nodded off!!!!

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by Spideylj

[Gary Prentice]

1 hour ago, Spideylj said:

Check with your local TO about how they will accept s211 notices.  I will accept emails from arborists working in our area.

Sorry, you don't actually have that much say in what you will or won't accept. It can be on the back of a fag packet, as long as all the pertinent information is supplied.

There is no specific format or form in the legislation, so a LA can't tell the notifier how they actually go about doing the notifying can they? 

 

1 hour ago, Spideylj said:

However, the clock starts on this one when the application is determined as valid.  The determination of validity should be done within 3 days but this is good practice rather than law.

So a LA can be tardy, not validate for two months and then the applicant has to wait another two months for a determination. 

 

I'd love to test that with PINs 

[benedmonds]

16 minutes ago, Gary Prentice said:

So a LA can be tardy, not validate for two months and then the applicant has to wait another two months for a determination. 

 

I'd love to test that with PINs 

The planning inspectorate is even more tardy (under-resourced) then the worse lpas. They work at a glacial pace..  You would have to be very patient to test with pins..

Edited July 19, 2019 by benedmonds