Working for the Commission for the first time

[Frett]

59 minutes ago, Khriss said:

I think hand cutting for pulp is uneconomic in those stands so they get over ripe then forgotten- a machine like yrs with a lil harvester head on it would tidy those stands right up an make a more valuable harvest at the end. Could be yr on to a winner first forwarder I saw in SW Scotland looked like it was made from a bit chopped off the Forth bridge K

Speaking from the west coast of Scotland, we are considering thinning operations in some stands again, having largely stopped since the late 80s.

 

The arguments against thinning, like you said, largely revolve around thinning stands being uneconomical, with the eventual improved crop not outweighing the cost of 1st and 2nd thinning operations. Combine this with the real threat of substantial windblow damage to newly thinned stands from the north Atlantic winds, the mills having pretty narrow demands of timber size (which can be met by an unthinned 30-45 year old stand), and a general lack of knowledge about an operation type that hasn't really been carried out for 30+ years. A lot of damage was done to the concept of thinning by ill advised operations in mature crops that simply blew over at a slight breeze.

 

However, as part of a national move towards 'alternatives to clear fell' (ATC) and continuous cover forestry (CCF) systems, and an increasing demand for a higher grade of timber than can be provided by unthinned stands, we're looking at how to overcome the challenges listed above (remote stands, high winds, challenging terrain). Importantly, as the forest road network improves, one of the major cost barriers to economical operations - the movement of machines and timber - is falling. Similarly, we're better at identifying which sites will prove capable of handling a thin, and which should just be planted up and left alone.

[Big J]

Excellent post Frett. Very informative. 

[Frett]

23 hours ago, Big J said:

Excellent post Frett. Very informative. 

Cheers J. I've been following your journey souf' with interest, it's the kind of operation a lot of contractors (present and former) dream of - small, sharp machines doing a thoroughly professional job on sensitive sites. I did my machine training in Sweden, on smaller harvesters doing neat first and second thinnings around homesteads, so coming back to Scotland to do clearfells that look like a warzone on remote hills was a bit of shock!

[Big J]

13 minutes ago, Frett said:

Cheers J. I've been following your journey souf' with interest, it's the kind of operation a lot of contractors (present and former) dream of - small, sharp machines doing a thoroughly professional job on sensitive sites. I did my machine training in Sweden, on smaller harvesters doing neat first and second thinnings around homesteads, so coming back to Scotland to do clearfells that look like a warzone on remote hills was a bit of shock!

I've often been accused of having a crush on Scandinavia as a whole. The forests there are so different to here, and require so little maintenance in order to get a top notch crop. 

 

I love the little harvesters from Usewood - their combi machine (both a forwarder and a harvester) is brilliant, but at over £100k, well out of my price range. 

 

Our trees seem to grow quite stoutly compared to in Scandinavia too, so even in a first thinning, I think you'd soon come unstuck with a 22cm throat. 

[Frett]

35 minutes ago, Big J said:

I've often been accused of having a crush on Scandinavia as a whole. The forests there are so different to here, and require so little maintenance in order to get a top notch crop. 

 

I love the little harvesters from Usewood - their combi machine (both a forwarder and a harvester) is brilliant, but at over £100k, well out of my price range. 

 

Our trees seem to grow quite stoutly compared to in Scandinavia too, so even in a first thinning, I think you'd soon come unstuck with a 22cm throat. 

You're not alone in having a crush I can tell you. Their (the Swedish) system is widely understood by the public and forestry professionals and more or less unchanged from north to south. Everything is managed on a simple rotation, calculated as though the trees were going to live to 100 but in practice are felled at around 60 years of age, when productive growth starts to slow substantially. There are 2-3 thinnings at roughly 15 year intervals, with the first taking most of the birch (often for firewood) and the second/third taking the smaller pine/spruce. Everything seems to grow so bloody straight each thinning is profitable. Finally, since such vast areas are involved they don't plant nearly as much as we do, since the Birch/Pine/Spruce mix will regenerate happily from the seed bank and will have reached a thinning size by the time they return to it.

 

Since most farms have woodland attached, there's a huge market for the kind of machinery Usewood and the dozen other manufacturers of dinky harvesting equipment create. Often the farms will carry out the first/second thinnings for themselves and their neighbours with those machines, before calling in the contractors to carry out the third thin/final fell with the big stuff.

 

Like I said, its all very neat and easy, and it helps that public are aware and invested in how the forests are worked and managed. They expect a neat job, but also know that while a harvested site looks a bit rough for the year afterwards it'll soon grass over. The kids can name the plant and tree species they see, and can identify good firewood and good berries, they know not to ignore operational warning signs...

 

A bit rose-tinted I know, but compared to the hodge-podge mess of management styles and warring land use factions we have in the UK it was a wonderland.

 

Your last point about width I think is to do with the wind being generally stronger across the UK, and having to grow more reactionary wood. The south west 'biome' of Norway is often looked to as being the closest to the Scotland in terms of geography and meteorology, and is of keen interest to the rewilding/reforesting fraternity.

[LeeGray]

16 minutes ago, Frett said:

You're not alone in having a crush I can tell you. Their (the Swedish) system is widely understood by the public and forestry professionals and more or less unchanged from north to south. Everything is managed on a simple rotation, calculated as though the trees were going to live to 100 but in practice are felled at around 60 years of age, when productive growth starts to slow substantially. There are 2-3 thinnings at roughly 15 year intervals, with the first taking most of the birch (often for firewood) and the second/third taking the smaller pine/spruce. Everything seems to grow so bloody straight each thinning is profitable. Finally, since such vast areas are involved they don't plant nearly as much as we do, since the Birch/Pine/Spruce mix will regenerate happily from the seed bank and will have reached a thinning size by the time they return to it.

 

Since most farms have woodland attached, there's a huge market for the kind of machinery Usewood and the dozen other manufacturers of dinky harvesting equipment create. Often the farms will carry out the first/second thinnings for themselves and their neighbours with those machines, before calling in the contractors to carry out the third thin/final fell with the big stuff.

 

Like I said, its all very neat and easy, and it helps that public are aware and invested in how the forests are worked and managed. They expect a neat job, but also know that while a harvested site looks a bit rough for the year afterwards it'll soon grass over. The kids can name the plant and tree species they see, and can identify good firewood and good berries, they know not to ignore operational warning signs...

 

A bit rose-tinted I know, but compared to the hodge-podge mess of management styles and warring land use factions we have in the UK it was a wonderland.

 

Your last point about width I think is to do with the wind being generally stronger across the UK, and having to grow more reactionary wood. The south west 'biome' of Norway is often looked to as being the closest to the Scotland in terms of geography and meteorology, and is of keen interest to the rewilding/reforesting fraternity.

Great post, very interesting reading.

[Big J]

5 hours ago, Frett said:

You're not alone in having a crush I can tell you. Their (the Swedish) system is widely understood by the public and forestry professionals and more or less unchanged from north to south. Everything is managed on a simple rotation, calculated as though the trees were going to live to 100 but in practice are felled at around 60 years of age, when productive growth starts to slow substantially. There are 2-3 thinnings at roughly 15 year intervals, with the first taking most of the birch (often for firewood) and the second/third taking the smaller pine/spruce. Everything seems to grow so bloody straight each thinning is profitable. Finally, since such vast areas are involved they don't plant nearly as much as we do, since the Birch/Pine/Spruce mix will regenerate happily from the seed bank and will have reached a thinning size by the time they return to it.

 

Since most farms have woodland attached, there's a huge market for the kind of machinery Usewood and the dozen other manufacturers of dinky harvesting equipment create. Often the farms will carry out the first/second thinnings for themselves and their neighbours with those machines, before calling in the contractors to carry out the third thin/final fell with the big stuff.

 

Like I said, its all very neat and easy, and it helps that public are aware and invested in how the forests are worked and managed. They expect a neat job, but also know that while a harvested site looks a bit rough for the year afterwards it'll soon grass over. The kids can name the plant and tree species they see, and can identify good firewood and good berries, they know not to ignore operational warning signs...

 

A bit rose-tinted I know, but compared to the hodge-podge mess of management styles and warring land use factions we have in the UK it was a wonderland.

 

Your last point about width I think is to do with the wind being generally stronger across the UK, and having to grow more reactionary wood. The south west 'biome' of Norway is often looked to as being the closest to the Scotland in terms of geography and meteorology, and is of keen interest to the rewilding/reforesting fraternity.

Great to get an insight into Scandinavian forestry practices. Really good post again. 

 

I was taken aback by the quality of the stands I've seen in Finland and Sweden. Almost no effort to get a complete stand of poker straight trees, whereas you can plant quality saplings here, high prune rigorously, control your pests diligently and thin at the correct intervals and still end up with a final crop of shite! 

[difflock]

I discussed this subject with a very experienced old Forester about 25 years ago, but I was asking why Germany and France could grow arrow straight Oak and Beech, unlike in N Ireland.

Never mind the Scandanavian Conifers.

Despite his knowledge and experience he could offer no answer.

And this subject still perplexed and vexes me.

Is it the ground, or the climate or indeed the culture?

Or what?

Marcus

Edited August 29, 2018 by difflock

[Big J]

I think it's mostly climate. Lack of wind and defined seasons. We also get too much rain I think.

[Stere]

Is there any planned &  managed from sapling to harvest,  oak or beech forestry  plantations in the UK?

 

This book looks good:

 

http://www.treesource.co.uk/oak%3A-fine-timber-in-100-years~4476

 

Some background info:

 

https://www.forestryjournal.co.uk/media/uploads/cat-247/quick-quercus.pdf

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by Stere