Rules for CS30 etc. refreshers/retakes?

[Mick Dempsey]

Refreshments? Thirsty work rescuing people.

 

(am drinking)

Edited March 14, 2018 by Mick Dempsey

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

4 hours ago, AA Teccie (Paul) said:

I missed that Kevin (or did I, having just re-read it.) However my post was in a general context as it's often a mis-interpreted issue is refresher training. But, as you say, some organisations, including BALI / CSCS and FISA, interpret it in a literal sense and we are currently in discussions with them to try to negotiate acceptance of other, evidence based options, including 'in-house'...not getting very far so far tho

 

Best regards n hope you're well (BTW x2 Cornwall 'specific' ArbACs now )

Paul  

?? I’ve got an eye on the Kernow Spring branch conf thing... If time (weather) allows, hoping might be poss. 

[Stuart Phillips]

On ‎13‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 15:40, kevinjohnsonmbe said:

That’s the way to do it ??...... If you have to!

 

I take issue with the principle of refresher training though. It’s a gravy train for accrediting bodies...

 

You can’t “un-learn” something after 5 years - what a ridiculous concept. Does an electrician, dentist,, Masters graduate cease to be qualified after a predetermined timescale? No. You can’t “un-learn.”  

 

Is is it the supposed “hazard” associated with the work? Sorry - that just doesn’t stack up - driving test at 16, drive til age 79+. Well, 1000’s of people per year are killed on the roads. Nothing like that amount from fatal chainsaw injuries so it just doesn’t stack up. 

 

Sorry, not buying the “things change” line either...  Not a credible argument. 

 

Its a cartel!

As far as I am aware NPTC don't offer refreshers, but Lantra does.... so is it just a "gravy train" for one accrediting body?  Most refreshers delivered are not through Lantra (unfortunately), but are done by independent trainers to their own syllabus.  They then add that they were delivered by a Lantra instructor or NPTC assessor ( as an indication that they ought to know the standards).

 

They are done because training a requirement in PUWER regulation 9, and Para 124 of the ACOP states; " You will need to provide refresher training when necessary. Skills decline if they are not used regularly. For example, you would want to check if refresher training is needed after a lengthy period of absence from work, or if a worker is moved onto a work process that has changed since they last performed those tasks. Pay particular attention to people who deputise for others infrequently – as they may need more frequent refresher training than those who do the job regularly."

 

The guide of 3 years or 5 years is in the HSE's Chainsaws at Work leaflet (INDG317(rev2), published 01/13  ), which states; "All chainsaw operators should do regular refresher/update training to ensure they work to industry best practice and maintain their levels of competence. The suggested intervals for refresher training are:

occasional users – every two to three years, full-time users – every five years. "

 

I wouldn't be keen to argue that there should be mandatory retesting of drivers every few years as, like many other drivers, I am sure that I have adopted some bad habits.  However, the best practice for chainsaw operators is to run a refresher.

As to the "gravy train", its up to the individual or their employer as to whether they do a Lantra refresher, or one from an independent provider, or in-house training.  The law clearly places the responsibility on the employer (including the self employed,) under PUWER reg 9, so it is up to them to work out what their 'defendable position' will be in the case of an accident.

[onetruth]

Thanks for all the useful info, everyone.

 

For me it isn't about a CSCS or anything like that, just needed to check I'm operating within the law, and whether I needed to rethink the viability of my business if I had to redo all my tickets every 5 years! 

[Stuart Phillips]

The standard line if you're not upskilling, is to refresh the highest qual you have, which is often the one you use least often.  So doing a windblow refresher will draw on the skills around felling as well.  It would include elements of winching etc. , and unless you're working with a brand new saw or chain, the instructor should be able to identify whether your working with a machine that's poorly maintained. 

 

Basically all you're after is for the instructor to identify any areas of weakness or where bad habits have crept in, and to help you address them. Otherwise it should be a  bit of a reassurance that you're still at the standard, a reminder of any key points around the job, and an update on recent incidents and accidents that you need to be wary of.

 

[Rich Rule]

3 minutes ago, Stuart Phillips said:

The standard line if you're not upskilling, is to refresh the highest qual you have, which is often the one you use least often.  So doing a windblow refresher will draw on the skills around felling as well.  It would include elements of winching etc. , and unless you're working with a brand new saw or chain, the instructor should be able to identify whether your working with a machine that's poorly maintained. 

 

Basically all you're after is for the instructor to identify any areas of weakness or where bad habits have crept in, and to help you address them. Otherwise it should be a  bit of a reassurance that you're still at the standard, a reminder of any key points around the job, and an update on recent incidents and accidents that you need to be wary of.

 

I had to do refresher a course last year for a ROLO/BALI thing as a prerequisite to CSCS.

 

They said that refreshing my rigging ticket wouldn't be acceptable for ground based refresher training.  I had to do the refresher on small fells.

 

I can understand the need for casual users but I am on the tools between 4 and 6 days a week and have been for about 15 years...  it was a waste of money but the guy going for the contract paid for the training for us.

 

I must admit, it did feel like a large money making exercise for everyone else apart from the people forking out for it.

[porky]

I'm just wondering how many Refresher courses the top people at Carillion did last year?

[Ian C]

I’m not sure about the time scale but I’ve just been refused a skilled worker CSCS card until I’ve completed refreshers for ground and Ariel work. So apparently you have to do them now.

Just get a labourer card, never had n issue

[eggsarascal]

25 minutes ago, Ian C said:

Just get a labourer card, never had n issue

It's always worked for me. Never been asked for anymore.

[ABA Northern division]

Personally, I think there is a real value to refresher training, if done properly. It shouldn't be a box ticking exercise but a worthwhile part of your own Continued Professional Development.

 

I've been in the industry for over thirty years but this old dog is still loving learning new tricks.

Myself and a fellow trainer from ABA Northern Division  have just returned from the Czech republic where we attended a technical training event on advanced tree felling techniques & Single Rope Techniques.

We were lucky enough to be taught by some highly skilled and enthusiastic arborists including Armands Leige who trains international competition teams. It was demanding but really rewarding and I've brought home new skills that I'm enjoying using and perfecting.

 

Also I think refresher training for contract compliance, although short, is very worth doing if carried out correctly, it irons out those bad habits we pick up and rekindles our interest in being technically skilled.