How specifically can you reasonably determine tree age?

[Willow Warbler]

When dealing with an Area TPO covering trees planted before 1950, how specifically can you be expected to identify the age of the trees concerned?   Some have very evidently taken root long after this date, however there are others I am not so sure about.  How acceptable is it to use an increment borer for those borderline ones?  Or will estimates just have to be made from girth measurements/average growth rates?

[Anno]

Some good advice on the Ancient Tree Forum place and none invasive...

[Steve Bullman]

Increment borers aren't for measuring age, and I don't know of any long enough to reach the centre of a 70 year old tree anyway.

[Adam M]

Email the LPA and tell them to pull their socks up. 

[Chris Day]

Is it an area TPO or a woodland order? Same legal staus but different application, as I understand it having had a similar argument with a LA, Mansfield. They had a blanket Tpo which was 40 years old but couldn't tell me which trees were in the area, so I suggested they get out and catalogue the TPO. A woodland order, just dealt with one in Scunthorpe, covers extant trees at time of issue and anything which is planted or self seeded there after and no catalogue is required. 

[Gary Prentice]

Strictly speaking, using an increment borer could be considered as a contravention of the TPO

[Willow Warbler]

Thanks for all your responses.  Anno, I will check out the Ancient Tree Forum.

 

Steve and Gary: I am a little confused as it sounds like using an increment borer is a really frowned upon.  I am aware you can get ones which are 20 inches long, so these would presumably deal with some species of tree which were planted about 70 years ago – as you have to twist them in just beyond the centre of the trunk before extracting the core.  

 

I am aware that they are also used for detecting rot, however, this is on the Royal Forestry Society’s website:

‘Foresters have a clever way of ageing a tree without cutting it down.  They use an ‘increment borer’ to take a core sample – about the width of a pencil – from the inside of a living tree.  The core is then carefully extracted and the annual rings counted.  The hole is then plugged again to protect the tree.’

‘The RFS is the largest and longest established education charity promoting the wise management of woods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Our mission is to inspire passion and excellence in woodland management. We do this through education and knowledge-sharing, which have been at the heart of the RFS ethos since its foundation in 1882.’

 

Adam and Chris: The landowner is not keen on getting the LA involved for fear of them slapping a Woodland TPO on the land, as there is currently only an Area TPO for the trees which existed in 1950.  Does anyone have any experience of this happening?  Presumably a Woodland TPO saves the LA the headache of cataloguing individual trees…

[Stubby]

Vesp could tell you without even looking at it .

Edited March 4, 2018 by Stubby

[Gary Prentice]

Increment boring's invasive, therefore damaging, so a pedantic tree/planning officer 'could' view it as a contravention. 

 

sometimes invasive techniques are necessary, as the lesser of two evils, but to establish whether a tree was <x number of years/not protected, probably wouldn't cut it.

 

TBH, I think you're in a precarious position. Measuring trees and relying on statistics to estimate ages. The growth rates/annual increments don't need to err by much to put you on the wrong side of the law. 

 

What I've done successfully with a wooded area TPO, is to write a management plan for the woodland and submitted that. If it's based on good practice, demonstrates that the aim is to provide sustainability etc it shouldn't be a problem. The LA is happy, the trees are under good management.

 

On the other hand, felling trees that you 'think' aren't covered without knowledge/consent/involvement of the LA may just raise their level of concern and raise a Woodland TPO anyway. Depending on context, sometimes it is best to have them on board. 

[Paul Barton]

If you have a resistance drill (eg Resistograph) of high enough resolution the reading will show annual rings. As long as the drill bit can penetrate the entire radius that could give you useful information.