Free will or lack of.......

[Rough Hewn]

Anyone heard of choice frameworks?
Or the duality of consciousness inside an animal body and mind?
Anyone read the "naked ape" or" naked zoo"?

[the village idiot]

15 hours ago, WesD said:

I’m not religious whatsoever but have an open mind. I buy 98% of this consciousnesses debate however I feel there is a free will be it limited, most inputs are forced through our senses and our outputs are automated like we have said through past experiences and what not but we are still left with a choice whether you believe that is free will or sub conscious letting you believe in free will is probably a personal belief and how you believe your wired internally. 

 

I believe it’s free will and the choice isn’t pre made I’ll now say why I believe this, I have had a few goes at meditating now and when I’m deep in the process I can see thoughts shapes and lights I can choose to ride a thought and see it for what it is or leave it and look at another or watch them go whilst holding onto the breath but in that state I can choose where I go and when to end my session it’s quite liberating I know I’m not being guided and can see it for what it is. 

 

I believe now however it is your choice you have the option of control and or free will. 

 

Inventors more than likely made the choice to have free will for they had to think and invent something that never existed and in that sense couldn’t have been guided by experience of past thoughts they had to train the brain so to speak to think of something for its first time and creation of thought created invention. 

Hi Wes. good on you for sticking with it.

 

Your description of your experience suggests to me that either you are a natural zen master, or you are falling prey to little corruptions that every meditator does. 

 

It is very easy to fall into the trap of assessing your progress whilst meditating. Most people think things like "OK, I've got this sorted now, ah there's a thought, dodged that one. That previous one had me for a little while, but I'm certainly improving."

 

All these sort of things are just more thinking without knowing that you're thinking and corrupt the practice. It sounds from your description that you are able to stay aware of the contents of conciousness, one step removed, with the ability to stop a thought when you want to. This would make you superhuman.

 

Carry on with the practice, and try not to make any judgements whilst in your practice time. If your mind wanders, simply return it to the breath. See if you truly can choose to ride a thought or choose when to return to the breath. If this is the case you should be able to limit any thought to say a 5 second duration. Give this a go.

 

Also worth noticing how you feel after a meditation session and how you interact with other people, especially if you can push practice up to 20 minutes.

 

 

[the village idiot]

2 hours ago, Rough Hewn said:

Anyone heard of choice frameworks?
Or the duality of consciousness inside an animal body and mind?
Anyone read the "naked ape" or" naked zoo"?

Nope, Yes, Nope, Nope!

Looks like I've got some reading to do. The naked ape has been on the reading list forever.

[the village idiot]

13 hours ago, skyhuck said:

Sure I get occasional negative thoughts or worries, but I simply think through a plan of action if the worst should happen and then crack on, knowing planB is in place.

You are very fortunate to be able to do that.

 

People with depression very often simply don't have the ability to think through a plan and crack on. This makes life very challenging.

 

Trying to hold together some sort of stable and rewarding life when you have depression is fantastically hard work.

 

Living day to day, free of depression, is a real doddle in comparison.

[aspenarb]

Small derail but don`t retailers play games with our sub conscious? Constantly bombing us with subliminal messages in an attempt to alter our minds and spending habits.  A guy I know sells smells, they too sell retailers  products that can influence purchasers, certain smells are used that will influence purchasers in virtually any retail outlet.

 

http://adage.com/article/cmo-strategy/smell-money-marketers-sell-scent/296084/

 

Bob

[the village idiot]

2 hours ago, aspenarb said:

Small derail but don`t retailers play games with our sub conscious? Constantly bombing us with subliminal messages in an attempt to alter our minds and spending habits.  A guy I know sells smells, they too sell retailers  products that can influence purchasers, certain smells are used that will influence purchasers in virtually any retail outlet.

 

http://adage.com/article/cmo-strategy/smell-money-marketers-sell-scent/296084/

 

Bob

Absolutely Bob, and not a derail at all. The environment (whether we are aware of it or not) plays a huge part in determining how we act. If you add the state of the brain into the mix, you have the forces at play in everything you think and everything you do. 

 

You ultimately have no control over the environment or the state of your brain in any given moment, meaning you are not responsible for your actions. They are carried out by your brain and body but 'you' do not get a say in the matter. The experience of 'youness' is just a curious add on.

 

You can get some idea of the problem with believing we have an unchanging self riding about in our heads by thinking about the following. Can anyone honestly say that they are the same self when at home, at work or out drinking with mates? Are you the same self you were 10 years ago, 1 year ago or even 10 minutes ago?

 

The environment largely dictates the self that shows up. Some people suffer from multiple fixed senses of self. Some people have reportedly lost the sense of self entirely and live constantly in the flow state. (this must be truly awesome).

 

It is fairly easy to see the 'self' as not being an unchanging constant. It is a bigger step, but entirely possible to see it for the illusion that it is. If you get to this point the concept of free will becomes untennable. 

 

It's really important to say that accepting that free will doesn't exist and that the 'self inside your head' is an illusion, doesn't change what you do in your life to any significant degree. The brain still does it's amazing things and directs you through the day. One chap who has purposefully extinguished his sense of self is an Accident and Emergency doctor.

 

The biggest change you will notice is how you view other people. Those doing well are lucky, those not getting on well are unlucky. This is an important shift in perception, it breeds compassion, which is surely a most excellent thing!

[Mark J]

On 30/12/2017 at 23:36, the village idiot said:

Hi Mark, that's fantastic to hear. 

 

The knowledge that negative thoughts are just noise generated by a dodgy computer in the head can set you on a fast trajectory to betterness. Internalise the only possible conclusion that these thoughts are in no real sense 'you'. If anything is a 'you' it is the unchanging space of conciousness hidden just below the thought stream. If enough focus can be trained up it is possible to watch these completely automatic and unsummoned thoughts arise and quickly vanish from conciousness. They have nothing to attach to, their ability to cause emotional suffering can ultimately be completely stripped away. This is hugely liberating, and can add fuel to a massive shift in perspective in regards to your relationship to thoughts, changing life's experience in a fundamentally beneficial way.

 

Have you had any experience of meditation practice?

A little.  We used to use breathing exercises as part of karate.

 

I've read quite alot of Alan Watts' work.  I've read about Jung and his theories: 'Man and His Symbols' being particularly of interest.

 

I've had bi-lateral tinnitus since my teens which has deterred me from practicing meditation in the past.  It kind of gets in the way.  However, having dipped my toes into mindfullness, I reckon that acceptance of the thought processes is not dissimilar to the acknowledgement, acceptance and dissmissal of the noise my ears seem to generate.

[the village idiot]

6 minutes ago, Mark J said:

A little.  We used to use breathing exercises as part of karate.

 

I've read quite alot of Alan Watts' work.  I've read about Jung and his theories: 'Man and His Symbols' being particularly of interest.

 

I've had bi-lateral tinnitus since my teens which has deterred me from practicing meditation in the past.  It kind of gets in the way.  However, having dipped my toes into mindfullness, I reckon that acceptance of the thought processes is not dissimilar to the acknowledgement, acceptance and dissmissal of the noise my ears seem to generate.

Spot on Mark!

 

Unfortunately Mindfulness cannot cure your tinnitus but it can change your relationship to it in a way that is almost as good as a cure. The same can be achieved with pain. You can get to a stage where you are aware of there being a ringing or a pain, but it doesn't belong to 'you' in a fundamental way. This greatly reduces the hold it can have. 

[Mark J]

4 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

Spot on Mark!

 

Unfortunately Mindfulness cannot cure your tinnitus but it can change your relationship to it in a way that is almost as good as a cure. The same can be achieved with pain. You can get to a stage where you are aware of there being a ringing or a pain, but it doesn't belong to 'you' in a fundamental way. This greatly reduces the hold it can have. 

That's how I manage tinnitus now.  When people think 'MY tinnitus is really loud' they're giving it an identity it doesn't deserve.  The more attention you pay to it, the louder it seems to get.  It took some time to reach this point though.  

 

[Mortimer Firewood]

58 minutes ago, Mark J said:

That's how I manage tinnitus now.  When people think 'MY tinnitus is really loud' they're giving it an identity it doesn't deserve.  The more attention you pay to it, the louder it seems to get.  It took some time to reach this point though.  

 

Does your Tinnitus way you up at night?