Brit Girls - Fat

[the village idiot]

4 hours ago, Vespasian said:

If it wasn't an arb forum I could bang on about this till kingdom come...   

 

Of the vids on utube I watched yesterday a third were devoted to understanding free will..   and even after that I can't settle on a solution..

 

I fully understand our actions are the result of unconscious actions in the brain directing  us to act..  But I can't imagine that means our conscious mind doesn't influence the unconscious mind..   chicken and egg, which comes first?.   

 

On the subject of free will in regards crime and punishment, two things spring to mind.. First, people who believe criminals can't help themselves are much more likely to forgive criminal behavior.. (applies to me a lot of times).

 

Criminals who believe they can cheat will cheat..  If a killer thinks his punishment is being treated in a clinic for a month to change his behavior, those behind him will take advantage and more people will die as a result...

 

IE, If society took a more forgiving attitude to crime, the the result would be more crime.  its not exactly what we want is it?..

 

 

Bit of a puzzler in it, you want to help, but by helping you only make things worse..   

 

 

 

 

You're almost there Vesp

 

I think you are attaching too much significance to the concious mind. It is certainly true to say that the concious mind influences the unconcious mind. This is undeniable. The important thing to appreciate here is that what appears in conciousness (thoughts) are themselves products of the unconcious mind. These thoughts can and do feed back to the unconcious mind generating more thoughts (ad infinitum) until death.

 

The unconcious brain is constantly automatically churning out stuff. A small proportion of this stuff appears in conciousness as thoughts. This is what gives us the sense of being a Self. We have no control over the unconcious, what appears in conciousness or how these appearances feed back to the unconcious. These are the processes that dictate how our lives pan out in every way, and as we have no control over any of it, by extension, we have no free will.

 

The sense of Self in conciousness gives us the very strong impression that 'we' are pilling the levers of life experience, but this too is all just part of the automatic feedback loop generated by our marvelous but ADHD smitten crazy unconcious brain.

 

Your points about crime clinics and forgiveness are very interesting. 

[the village idiot]

Sorry folks. Fat fingers!

[the village idiot]

If anyone is at all interested in the whole self/free will illusion stuff. I seriously recommend watching the video posted below.

 

Some of you have no doubt encountered Sam Harris. He is a neuroscientist and author/podcaster and in my view one of the most important people on the planet right now.

 

He is most well known for his views on the dangers of religious dogma, but is also a clear thinking communicator on secular spirituality, mindfulness, ethics and artificial intelligence.

 

In this interview he is talking about the 'self' illusion and the benefits of penetrating it with mindfulness meditation. Towards the end he talks about free will and the consequences of not accepting it.

 

You will see where a lot of my thinking on the subject originates from. 

 

It is an hour long, and at the risk of sounding like a dick, I think it's really worth setting the time aside to watch it in it's entirety with no distractions. As is pointed out in some of the viewers comments he has the habit of dropping extremely profound statements into normal everyday sentences.

 

If you accept and internalise the argument it can have seriously beneficial consequences on the quality of your life. This sounds like a new age woo woo statement, but I sincerely think that it is not overstating things.

 

TVI.

 

 

[felixthelogchopper]

4 minutes ago, the village idiot said:

If anyone is at all interested in the whole self/free will illusion stuff. I seriously recommend watching the video posted below.

 

Some of you have no doubt encountered Sam Harris. He is a neuroscientist and author/podcaster and in my view one of the most important people on the planet right now.

 

He is most well known for his views on the dangers of religious dogma, but is also a clear thinking communicator on secular spirituality, mindfulness, ethics and artificial intelligence.

 

In this interview he is talking about the 'self' illusion and the benefits of penetrating it with mindfulness meditation. Towards the end he talks about free will and the consequences of not accepting it.

 

You will see where a lot of my thinking on the subject originates from. 

 

It is an hour long, and at the risk of sounding like a dick, I think it's really worth setting the time aside to watch it in it's entirety with no distractions. As is pointed out in some of the viewers comments he has the habit of dropping extremely profound statements into normal everyday sentences.

 

If you accept and internalise the argument it can have seriously beneficial consequences on the quality of your life. This sounds like a new age woo woo statement, but I sincerely think that it is not overstating things.

 

TVI.

 

 

You don't normally let that stop you.

[Stubby]

3 hours ago, the village idiot said:

Sorry folks. Fat fingers!

But are they ? ................

[the village idiot]

2 minutes ago, Stubby said:

But are they ? ................

I think you may have inadvertantly but enthusiastically disappeared down the wrong rabbit hole Stubby.

 

Anyone got a Jack Russell?

[Vespasian]

Looking into this subject certainly messes with your mental health I can tell you, I've ended up watching a debate with Richard Carrier in an attempt at some light relief and escape from the subject matter... I can only take so much..

 

Now, having ruminated on, contemplated on, got a headache on, its struck me that the question shouldn't be does free will exist, but does it matter?..

 

After all, no matter if I understand it all or not, its not going to change anything I do other than contemplate the matter when I fancy having something to muse on...

 

The one thing I have got from looking into this subject is, if you let em, people will cheat, and if you're inclined to forgive wrongdoings, your making matters worse..

 

Which has application's in other subjects I happen to be in the middle of getting a headache on at the minute..   

[peatff]

We can all do as we please but we must also be prepared for the consequences of our action not blame someone or some set of circumstances for what happens as a result of doing what we please so some self moderation is required, some people don't realise this and never will because they are totally self centred. What happened to the original topic of this thread ? 

[Stubby]

Just now, peatff said:

We can all do as we please but we must also be prepared for the consequences of our action not blame someone or some set of circumstances for what happens as a result of doing what we please so some self moderation is required, some people don't realise this and never will because they are totally self centred. What happened to the original topic of this thread ? 

It went on a diet .........

[the village idiot]

8 minutes ago, Vespasian said:

Looking into this subject certainly messes with your mental health I can tell you, I've ended up watching a debate with Richard Carrier in an attempt at some light relief and escape from the subject matter... I can only take so much..

 

Now, having ruminated on, contemplated on, got a headache on, its struck me that the question shouldn't be does free will exist, but does it matter?..

 

After all, no matter if I understand it all or not, its not going to change anything I do other than contemplate the matter when I fancy having something to muse on...

 

The one thing I have got from looking into this subject is, if you let em, people will cheat, and if you're inclined to forgive wrongdoings, your making matters worse..

 

Which has application's in other subjects I happen to be in the middle of getting a headache on at the minute..   

It certainly is a mind warper. You kind of have to hijack your brains natural processes and turn them in on themselves to gain the necessary insight. Real mental gymnastics.

I'm not even sure that you can sort it all out through thinking alone.

 

Brain training (ie meditation) really helps. After a while this gradually gives you the opportunity to observe how your mind is fuctioning. You get to see that you are not in control and the 'self' becomes an untenable concept.

 

This can lead, and did in my case, to a bit of an identity crisis for a couple of days, but then you realise (as you rightly point out) it doesn't change an awful lot physically.

 

What it does do (and this is really important) is subtly but fundamentally change the nature of your cognitive relationship to yourself and your conception of all other sentient beings. (It is impossible to talk about this stuff without sounding like a total lunatic). You become aware that you are not your thoughts, this is hugely positively liberating as most of our thoughts are damaging- this becomes very clear when mindfulness meditation gives you the necessary concentration to be able to watch them.

 

You also realise that other people are not their thougts either. This insight has the potential to connect you compassionately to all other humans, and I would argue that we really need more of this phenomenon at the moment.

 

Try not to over think it for a while. Let it rattle around in your subconcious for a bit. Consider taking up a meditation practice and start to see your mind at work, if only for 10 minutes a day.