A public "good" must be paid for from the public purse

[flatyre]

this is all getting a bit confusing to me (not being a farmer) but if there are so many struggling farmers and farming is so critical to our economy, surely they should just sell their land to a farmer who can make it profitable? that's what happens in every other industry:confused1:

[flatyre]

also thought totally unrelated, a local prick who's from a now defunct farming family is throwing up sheds left right and centre (no planning permission needed) because he has a herd number, and he has no cattle, sheep, pigs or anything. Ah the benefits of being a farmer:confused1::confused1:

[Mull]

this is all getting a bit confusing to me (not being a farmer) but if there are so many struggling farmers and farming is so critical to our economy, surely they should just sell their land to a farmer who can make it profitable? that's what happens in every other industry:confused1:

 

 

It's subsidised!! Feck all to do with profit, well, not really!!

It wasn't easy for farmers about 15 or so years ago, then they got help, then they got greedy, now they've been found out!

They're not all greedy, but the greedy ones spoil it for the genuine grafters.

 

 

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[agg221]

surely they should just sell their land to a farmer who can make it profitable? that's what happens in every other industry:confused1:

 

No, this isn't what happens in every other industry. Take the electronics sector in the UK. In the 1990s there were two silicon foundries in the UK, one in Scotland, the other in the North East. They underpinned a substantial electronics industry making devices such as mobile phones. The cost of manufacture in the Far East was so much lower that they couldn't compete and shut down, along with the entire supply chain. It has gone completely for consumer electronics and has largely gone in Europe (Danfoss are moving out too now) and we simply import electronic goods.

 

The same pattern would happen with farming if one way or another it generates a loss rather than a profit.

 

There are things which can be done to make it more profitable - such as treating it like an industry and allowing it to make operational improvements like other production industries do, such as increasing unit areas (ripping out hedges and copses, ploughing right to the edge of roads) to gain an economy of scale on the size of plant, allowing latest developments to be used such as GM and relaxing control on pesticides and the planning and welfare rules to allow construction of intensive battery-type livestock units. That would make agriculture truly competitive, forming a level playing field with the countries from which we import, but I suspect is not palatable for other reasons.

 

Alternatively you could apply protectionism and place high tariffs on imports to allow the market to re-base to a level which was profitable. This might prove tricky in trade deals (what particular product do you think might be making New Zealand so keen to do a trade deal...?) and would also push the cost of living right up, requiring an increase in benefit payments to those who now fell below the bread line.

 

Either that, or we remove subsidies and just let agriculture dwindle, with the land returning to a natural state and accept the demise of the rural economy in many areas (Grade 1 land would probably be economic in its own right but not much else) while relying on imports, probably increasing the amount of greenfield housing development into the bargain since the land would have limited other uses.

 

Or perhaps the subsidy system isn't that bad after all?

 

Alec

Edited March 27, 2017 by agg221

[Mull]

No, this isn't what happens in every other industry. Take the electronics sector in the UK. In the 1990s there were two silicon foundries in the UK, one in Scotland, the other in the North East. They underpinned a substantial electronics industry making devices such as mobile phones. The cost of manufacture in the Far East was so much lower that they couldn't compete and shut down, along with the entire supply chain. It has gone completely for consumer electronics and has largely gone in Europe (Danfoss are moving out too now) and we simply import electronic goods.

 

 

 

The same pattern would happen with farming if one way or another it generates a loss rather than a profit.

 

 

 

There are things which can be done to make it more profitable - such as treating it like an industry and allowing it to make operational improvements like other production industries do, such as increasing unit areas (ripping out hedges and copses, ploughing right to the edge of roads) to gain an economy of scale on the size of plant, allowing latest developments to be used such as GM and relaxing control on pesticides and the planning and welfare rules to allow construction of intensive battery-type livestock units. That would make agriculture truly competitive, forming a level playing field with the countries from which we import, but I suspect is not palatable for other reasons.

 

 

 

Alternatively you could apply protectionism and place high tariffs on imports to allow the market to re-base to a level which was profitable. This might prove tricky in trade deals (what particular product do you think might be making New Zealand so keen to do a trade deal...?) and would also push the cost of living right up, requiring an increase in benefit payments to those who now fell below the bread line.

 

 

 

Either that, or we remove subsidies and just let agriculture dwindle, with the land returning to a natural state and accept the demise of the rural economy in many areas (Grade 1 land would probably be economic in its own right but not much else) while relying on imports, probably increasing the amount of greenfield housing development into the bargain since the land would have limited other uses.

 

 

 

Or perhaps the subsidy system isn't that bad after all?

 

 

 

Alec

 

 

[emoji106].....

 

 

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[flatyre]

I just don't get it, I understand folks saying farmers are struggling but its hard to know what's actually going on, when I think of a poor farmer I thing of some soaking wet, frozen dishevelled bloke on a massey 35, round here they all drive spanking New Hollands, no cleaning out the dung with a shovel as they have a JCB 409, He has the latest Defender, wife drives a new Discovery, etc etc.

[Mull]

I just don't get it, I understand folks saying farmers are struggling but its hard to know what's actually going on, when I think of a poor farmer I thing of some soaking wet, frozen dishevelled bloke on a massey 35, round here they all drive spanking New Hollands, no cleaning out the dung with a shovel as they have a JCB 409, He has the latest Defender, wife drives a new Discovery, etc etc.

 

 

Yup, I think you've hit the nail in the head!!

 

Alternatively, why should farmers not make as good a living as bankers?

 

 

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[flatyre]

quote:No, this isn't what happens in every other industry. Take the electronics sector in the UK. In the 1990s there were two silicon foundries in the UK, one in Scotland, the other in the North East. They underpinned a substantial electronics industry making devices such as mobile phones. The cost of manufacture in the Far East was so much lower that they couldn't compete and shut down, along with the entire supply chain. It has gone completely for consumer electronics and has largely gone in Europe (Danfoss are moving out too now) and we simply import electronic goods. Unquote.

 

It didn't turn a profit so they shut it down, why weren't they subsidised? or the ship building industry? or the coal mining industry etc. etc. If my business falls on hard times will I be subsidised:confused1:

[eggsarascal]

Yup, I think you've hit the nail in the head!!

 

Alternatively, why should farmers not make as good a living as bankers?

 

 

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Cuz ones subsidised and the other........ Oh hang on.

[Mull]

Cuz ones subsidised and the other........ Oh hang on.

 

 

Aye, hang on indeed!!

Pathetic.

 

 

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