Imported kiln dry logs ?

[R5log]

I reckon that the reasons that it is so difficult to make money from the sale of firewood (and why firewood is often so very expensive as a primary means of heating) are the storage and handling implications of supplying dry firewood.

 

 

 

Model two different suppliers. Each supply 1500 cube logs (circa 700 tonnes roundwood?) annually. The supplier than only supplies green requires only the space to accommodate roundwood and freshly split logs, that do not need to be protected from the weather. The logs can either be split straight into the tipping vehicle/trailer or a forklift shovel can load them. It's very simple and requires fairly little space or equipment.

 

 

 

The supplier that supplies dry firewood must find space to accommodate 1500 cubic metres of firewood drying at any one time. That is also £40000 simply in the cost of the cordwood. A large barn to dry the firewood, box rotators to empty out the firewood, and additional difficulties arise when trying to deliver firewood and keep it dry. Quite often here near Edinburgh in winter, you won't have any dry weather for weeks on end.

 

 

 

My point is, if you could educate the public into taking fresh firewood, then the retailers would make more money and the customer would save. At the other end of the market, the current trend for kiln dried firewood is only viable with RHI or imported stock. In very few instances could anyone make any money without one of the other.

 

 

Once you have built up your stock £20k say

You sell some, u buy some keep your stock roughly the same

[ash_smith123]

We always try to have about 100/150 dry at any one time to have a buffer. Kilns turn around 68 cube a week. If you wanted to you can run hardly any dry stock and just sell when the kilns are emptied

[Paul in the woods]

Similar to the food companies selling products as organic... organic has a massive spectrum of meanings when it comes to food but anyone actually look into how organic these products are? Most people buy it because it has organic on the packaging, again it's called marketing!

 

Organic food in the UK is certified by one of a few organisations though, so you at least have some idea what organic means.

 

I would also be curious to know what say Trading Standards would say about "Seasoned Wood" being sold that's 30% mc when I would have thought the average buyer would view it as 25% or less?

[ash_smith123]

Organic food in the UK is certified by one of a few organisations though, so you at least have some idea what organic means.

 

 

 

I would also be curious to know what say Trading Standards would say about "Seasoned Wood" being sold that's 30% mc when I would have thought the average buyer would view it as 25% or less?

 

 

I get what your saying but my point was organic as a word has a very wide spectrum.

 

Why would a customer view it as 25% or less? I advertise it an average of 30%. It clearly states it in the description on my website. I don't think a customer has ever asked me "why do you say your seasoned is an average of 30% when seasoned in 25%".

 

If I was advertising it as 25% or less and it was 30% then I would have a problem but I'm advertising it at an average of 30%.

[TimberCutterDartmoor]

HETAS say 25% or less is seasoned. Above 25% m/c is not. End of.

[Paul in the woods]

When you apply the word organic to goods in the UK it has a legal meaning, so you can't define it yourself. I could not sell organic potatoes and then say I use Roundup on them for example.

 

In the same way I would have thought selling 'seasoned' logs would mean something, a quick google suggests <25% or even <20% if kiln dried. I've no idea if 'seasoned' has any legal meaning but if it does then I wouldn't have thought you can redefine it yourself.

[ash_smith123]

HETAS say 25% or less is seasoned. Above 25% m/c is not. End of.

 

 

No it doesn't, it says 25% or less is preferable to use in stoves?

Im not HETAS/Woodsure registered so I don't have to stick to their guidelines.

Like I've said I give my customers 2 options, one that is under 20% moisture and one that is an average of 30% moisture. it doesn't matter what I call the 2 products I have advertised them for what they are. It's upto the customer to determine what they want to order. If they think they 100% need firewood that is advertised to be under 25% moisture they can either go for our kiln dried option or try somewhere else.

 

[TimberCutterDartmoor]

No it doesn't, it says 25% or less is preferable to use in stoves?

Im not HETAS/Woodsure registered so I don't have to stick to their guidelines.

Like I've said I give my customers 2 options, one that is under 20% moisture and one that is an average of 30% moisture. it doesn't matter what I call the 2 products I have advertised them for what they are. It's upto the customer to determine what they want to order. If they think they 100% need firewood that is advertised to be under 25% moisture they can either go for our kiln dried option or try somewhere else.

 

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If you're HETAS certified, there is an achievable standard to meet that dictates mc, branchwood %, log size and so on. Sure you don't have to comply with it, I do though and I suggest that flogging 30% as "seasoned" is BS. Just call it unseasoned or part-seasoned.

[Big J]

Why do you think you would make more money if you were selling unseasoned firewood?

I think It is viable to run a kiln and make money in firewood. The RHI is a nice bonus but if your first business model for example charges £60 per cubic metre for unseasoned firewood and my business model bought a kiln and dried the wood and sold it as kiln dried for £120 a cubic metre I would be £90k a year better off. Ok so I have to take the fuel cost of running the kiln out of that. If I bought softwood in and processed that for only for use in the kiln at an absolute maximum it would cost £15k in the year. So at the end of if I am £75k better off per year than your first business model.

I'm also supplying a quality product ready to burn that people want. Yes it would be nice to educate people into buying early but unfortunately that will never happen. You will always have the people on the morning of the first frost ringing asking if they can have a cubic metre of kiln dried, 10 bags of kindling, 5 boxes of firelighters and for us to stack it in there log store that afternoon.

 

But £120 a cube is too expensive for it to be a (financially) sustainable fuel source for anyone. Heating oil at 39.4 pence (the present price for local delivery here on Boilerjuice.com) is 2.5 times cheaper per kwh. I don't think that firewood usage will become a realistic alternative to fossil fuels until prices come down.

 

I also don't think that kiln operation is financially viable without RHI or unusual circumstances. I would fall into the latter category, running a sawmill I have more offcuts than I know what to do with and have a biomass boiler. I still think it's nonsense to burn firewood to dry firewood in a process that nature would do for you with a bit of patience!

 

I have a firewood processor and intend to push bulk loads of softwood this winter. Minimum 30 cube, delivered locally £33 a cube. Two guys, 16 hours work, profit £350 without me doing the work. I make some money and the customer gets a good deal.

[ash_smith123]

But £120 a cube is too expensive for it to be a (financially) sustainable fuel source for anyone. Heating oil at 39.4 pence (the present price for local delivery here on Boilerjuice.com) is 2.5 times cheaper per kwh. I don't think that firewood usage will become a realistic alternative to fossil fuels until prices come down.

 

 

 

I also don't think that kiln operation is financially viable without RHI or unusual circumstances. I would fall into the latter category, running a sawmill I have more offcuts than I know what to do with and have a biomass boiler. I still think it's nonsense to burn firewood to dry firewood in a process that nature would do for you with a bit of patience!

 

 

 

I have a firewood processor and intend to push bulk loads of softwood this winter. Minimum 30 cube, delivered locally £33 a cube. Two guys, 16 hours work, profit £350 without me doing the work. I make some money and the customer gets a good deal.

 

 

It's too expensive to be the only heat source for people but I would say 98% of my customers don't use it as a primary source of heating. They are room heaters so people don't mind paying the premium 1-3 cubic metres a year. There's no sign of the wood burner craze dying down either. All the stove installers around here are flatout. There's probably 8 in a 20 mile radius of me, then another 10/15 in Cardiff all flatout fitting stoves to people who just use it the odd night and on weekends. My main target customer isn't someone who has Woodfuel and a primary source.

But even the people who rely on it for their main source of heating don't think ahead. I have domestic RHI customers that ring me asking for a delivery in the middle of winter when they have just put the last log in the boiler, it doesn't matter how many times I tell them "ring me when you get down to half a cubic metre" it doesn't work.

 

Why don't you think a kiln option is viable without RHI? I've just broken it all down for you over 1500 cubic metre and a kiln model was £75k per year up??

 

So your happy to put your "offcuts" that could easily be processed into logs and sold into your biomass boiler but you still think it's nonsense why I would process softwood "firewood" to burn in mine?..... you do realise they are exactly the same thing?!?