LancsMike

That sounds pretty rough to say the least Dean and that guy in question sounds like a real charmer, it is sad that it happens but ultimately are you really worried ? You're an Ex Army bloke, have chainsaws and handsaws and other bits of kit. Chances are a numpty like him is just trying it on It's just one of those sad things really, biproduct of any civilised society is undesirables and the not-so-civilised. I just wish the Government did something to empower decent people again.

I understand where you're coming from Dave, proportionally it has grown with the population sure, but in my own humble view ? It's all too easy to just blame people or the individual rather than think the system is broken. My thinking on that is if you reduce the odds of those in the '' middle '' who can sway to being good or bad, you give them opportunities with jobs, education and prospects then the chances of those in the middle of turning out good increases proportionally - you get left with the nasty pieces of work and then you can look at ways to deal with that problem in particular. Perfect example of that is case studies of Children and Teenagers in Afghanistan and Iraq where they have said quite openly they will pick up an AK47 or an RPG7 and fire it at Coalition troops because they get paid to by the Taliban or Al Qaeda or any Militia group that they do it for, the why ? lack of prospects, money and opportunities, give them that and the Militants can be dealt with or in our own parrallel with our Society, you can deal with the real scumbags on a case by case basis and you seperate them out from the rest. My only worry with a thread like this and the thinking like this it leads to prejudice, same type of prejudice divides people and it empowers scumbags because the normal people in the middle, who get tarred with the same brush have little or no incentive to better themselves then.

It is going with the thread because several times people, including Dean have said how bad things are now and that there are scumbags all over getting away with it - I was just proving the point that there has been scumbags in the past, they are around now and will be in the future. The next step out from that showing how the media would rather you believe it was worse now because of the fact of Social and Media Engineering and you would be amazed how many people make a judgement call on what they see in the news rather than reading several articles or looking things up ie the '' Hoody '' stigma teenagers get slapped with. I could talk about my own personal experiences and friend's who have done some deplorable acts but at the end of the day it doesn't really have anything to do with it - we all make good decisions and bad decisions all the time as I am sure you have and Dean has and many other folks on Arbtalk, only difference is I'm not going to sit and pretend I'm an Angel because I went through some horrible things because ultimately I have done wrong in my life and been a pillock at times. I'd rather be the person that encourages others to think outside the box and understand the why, than make a snap judgement because of the clothes someone wears or how they behave and ultimately I don't know whats gone on in their life either. Edit : I'm not a Religious man, but think this quote is Apt with all the judgement calls being made - "And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her" - John 8:7

Which is all very commendable Dean and fair play you turned out alright and your kids have too, but not everyone is made of the same stuff, some people do end up falling by the wayside so to speak and some people are just plain nasty/evil pieces of work from the get go, I'm not and never have justified their behaviour all I argue is for people to look at the bigger picture. Crime has always been around since the first caveman robbed food from another. The only difference is these days the media would rather you believe it is getting worse when in reality it isn't, it just gets covered more because that is how the 21st Century is. As for how the system operates, thats a whole other debate and in your view it doesn't factor in but thats just your own opinion. There are far too many variables and reasoning's out there to put it down to one single thing but that's what education and life teaches any one of us - theres alway's more than one side to a story or as an older thread with what Skyhuck put, theres his truth, your truth and the real truth. Hearing about scumbags in the news doing over some innocent person is just one truth - case in point being Trayvon Martin in America at the moment, one side of the story says he was a good kid and the Security Guard was a nutball and Old photographs were used [ over 3 years old at that ] Whereas the current day photographs paint another picture - So which story is true ? who was the thug and who was the good guy ? There is always more to a story.

To be fair though, it's easy to hark back to yester-year and think times were better, there's always been scumbags in every generation, back in World War 2 there was a good amount of vile people who raped women during the Blitz, houses were looted while others were helping put out fires and so on but in History people would rather forget that [ Been a few documentaries on Discovery and History channel about it ] Plus go a step further than that, it's a bit of an English trait to complain about '' how bad things are '' and maybe you're right because you're living around it so you're going to feel more strongly about it Dean, but take a step back and look at how Law and Order is maintained even in extreme crisis compared to other countries. I think Andy Collins said it a few posts back or pages back relating to that. Overall the scumbags are few in number compared to the vast majority of law abiding, hard working people just the Media would rather you believe it's worse than it is, combine that with your own experience and you build up a scenario in your head that it's all going to Hell fast. Personally I'm quite happy living in England, go to somewhere like Bosnia and theres still armed Gangs or Chetniks as they are called roaming around the countryside, villages and towns still raping, looting and doing '' Ethnic cleansing '' when really they are just Armed thugs, worst one of the bunch being this man ?eljko Ra?natovi? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Bit of perspective always helps

Looks like a right mess there, wonder what happened, blowout maybe ?

A Fellow Arbtalker on here said to me '' Dont hope for work, the work is out there, just go out and find it '' and he was right [ Cheers Andy / Treequip ] I love tree work but I'm working in Haulage at the moment and would love to get back into Tree work and maybe get my HGV Licence in time too - that doesn't mean I want to drive a HGV all my life but like a lot of the guys have said here - it is a very valuable skill and qualification to have because there is a shortage of Class 1 and 2 Drivers out there. Combine that with your 30/31 and 38 and 39 in time means you're more likely to be employed by someone because you're a lot more useful to them. Just depends what you want to do and how you want to go about doing it really. Got to be a bit more positive 656Solo , you'll do alright just have to see it from another angle and like Mr Einstein once said : " In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity "

Maybe if the Planets are all in alignment, Tidal patterns are in sync and the Wind is at the right Speed behind you ? More possible in the 200 or 300 Tdi's but mine's just a straight 2.5 Diesel.. sounds like a tractor when she starts up and moves like one too

Nice one Geoff was suprised I could be done for speeding in a 20 year old land rover though !

Curious George eh ? Was just between me and Kev, I lost my rag over something he said and it just escalated but as I said, with the thread being about Pride and all - I'm not too proud and I admit I was in the wrong to lose my temper like I did do, the ins and outs of what was said isn't important - more the principle and the fact I am genuinely sorry for it, but thats just my take.

Nice to hear that mate with your brother. Only a minute though ? You don't mess about Who said romance is dead

So it'll be White wine next time ?

Good on you mate, proof really that anyone can turn their life around even in dark times like that with addiction I hope its good news for you Nick, can't imagine what you and your family must be going through but I hope things get better for all of you. Feels pretty futile putting my own tidbits up now but I'll give it my best. - Packing in smoking back in November [ started when I was 15 ] and haven't had one since the day I gave up [ Good on you too Mark B ] - Rebuilding my relationship with my Dad, short of it being quite a rough divorce with my parents and I didn't speak to him for 5 years, few more years on with the odd conversation I'm now back working with him in the Family Business and were talking/laughing everyday [ did put up photo on other thread but won't harp on ] - Getting some Closure about my Grandad and being glad to carry on his hard work. And on a similar note, realising I am a bit of a hothead at times I'm not too proud to admit I was in the wrong so here goes - Kev Stephenson - I'm sorry for what I said late last year to you and I hope at some point in the future at the APF or another show can buy you a pint and have a chat. Anyway enough rambling from me, hope to read some other good insights on here.

Happy birthday Hama - bit belated with the message but hope it was a great one for your 40th

Sounds like my Grandad too, makes spending time around older folks a lot more enjoyable when they have stories to tell like that, its the cantankerous nasty old ones I try to avoid nowadays

Sounds good to me - never know, might end up yakking to my dad about Haulage and everyone on about the golden days have to try and dig up some old photos if you can, be nice to have a look at them sometime

What was your grandads firm mate ? Never know might have some old photos tucked away down at the yard. You should bob in next time you do beaver, be nice to meet you mate and can stick the kettle on. It's my dad down there nowadays he isn't running Seddon Atkinsons or Scanias anymore, little bit old and not as many parts for them but either way, feel free to drop in and ask for me if you're worried about looking daft, just ask for me [Mike] and can park up and talk about trees and put the world to rights for a bit.

Always like threads like this - In 1 or 5 or 10 years time and you look back and read something like this it brings back memories and you realise how your thinking changes and how your life can sometimes go off on a tangent but you end up going back to your roots in some way or form As for me, as much as I love Tree work my hearts in Haulage really and I hope to be continuing my family's heritage, my Grandad started back up after a National Service stint in the REME with a Bedford Wagon, worked god knows how many hours to get a 2nd Wagon then a 3rd and a 4th to build it up to where my Dad took over and made it what it is today. Hopefully some day I might move back into Tree work too somehow. Don't mean to derail the thread but just been a really eventful week for me finding out a lot about my grandad. He was quite a character Anywho I'll shuttup rambling on Have a great weekend folks

Personally ? Depends on the rate of pay and Where the work is, I live in Hudd's but I've driven over to Darwen [ near Blackburn ] for work and St Helens and when I was doing a bit of Cabling work with a mate who's a sparky we travelled from Halifax to Hull daily for a few months. If the pay is high enough to cover fuel costs so I'm breaking an alright-ish wage I'll go wherever really. Sorry if thats a bit vague Plip but totally dependent on where / how much in my eyes

Seem's like its a very murky world in the Russian Forestry Business sadly, it's as bad as if not worse than RosNeft / Gazprom with scandals and Corruption being linked to guys like Semyon Mogilevich. The St. Petersburg Times - Banker Found Dead In Pool Forestry - Russia - export, area, system

Proof that old methods still work, looks like a really interesting read Mick

It has sparked a really good debate about what do you do in that type of situation, mixture of Ethics, Morals, Integrity and the like As for the grassing up thing... It isn't so much dropping another contractor in the proverbial pile of excrement, more as I said with Mick, I wasn't there so I can't judge the man. For all I know he could have had his boss screaming at him to do it otherwise he'd get the sack, maybe he had an off day and had an argument with his missus and wasn't thinking straight - it could be any number of variables. So on that very basis ? I wouldn't pass judgement on reporting him or not. The way I see it in my humble opinion for what it is worth, is that it's based on intent, the thought that matters - if he did drop the tree knowing there were nests and there were chicks ? I agree that is a criminal thing to do and just wrong, but by the same token it could have just been a genuine foul up and it could be argued he should have checked, but no one person is infallible - If we never make mistakes how can we learn. And I hope the day I drop a serious clanger I have someone who looks at it objectively too rather than wanting to nail me to a cross and throw the book at me to boot. Thats just my take on it all, be interesting to see what other folk's thoughts are.

That's fair enough if you disagree with it, wasn't disputing that. I was just saying that the people who were there are the ones to make the Judgement call as neither of us were there to witness what happened. But it still leaves the same point, what you did warranted the same punishment you just weren't caught, which proves the point of being leniant and accepting mistakes can be made. I wouldn't like to see you get heavily fined for a a mistake nor anyone else I have worked with or may work with in the future. Like Skyhuck said in another thread - There is his story, their story and then theres the truth and its prevalent in this scenario, Birch or not.

Based on that same story though by all rights a member of the public should have reported you - off your logic that is Mick, and got you in serious trouble with the Law, maybe a huge fine and what for a Mistake ? Regardless of you rearing the birds and ensuring their survival, you broke the law. It's way over the top to make a judgement call, I don't know what happened with that tree, you don't either but the difference is you're saying the guy should be taken to task over it when none of the facts have been presented, just the Aftermath.

Poetic Justice Love it