armybloke

Hi shipmate, you may want to have a look on this thread - you may find someone you know. Add yourself on it too as people will look out for familiar names. Good luck with the training. I did my chainsaw course at Kingswood - great place to learn. http://arbtalk.co.uk/forum/general-chat/28006-you-ex-military-no-not-one-steves-polls.html

There is a must read book called Trees: Their Natural History. It gives a good insight into rooting structures of trees. Rather too many parameters to consider for how big/far roots will travel.

Is this the norm? I noticed on my travels through Belgium, Germany, France and Switzerland that the trees are pollard to a low umberal shape. I can see the advantages immediately; a low crown easy for maintaining whilst still providing a tree'd avenue and shade for people. The species is key, I saw limes, planes, a few chestnut, very few tulip tree, and a number of other species. Is this practiced here in UK? I have attached a couple of pics taken in Koblenz (Germany), France and Switzerland by way of example. There is also two pictures of a bronze statue of a pollard London Plane which is a memorial to I believe the gardener at the Divonne Lake in the form I speak about.

A few London Planes around Lac Leman/Lake Geneva (depending on which side of the line you are) have eaten a the adjacent lampposts! The lights have now been removed but the posts remain. These are in Nyon on the Swiss side.

Good of you to post this David, I shall put my name forward.

I reckon you need a professional to look at that.......on a serious note a little more information may be needed like have you climbed the tree yet to see how deep that old wound cavity is? It could be a water pocket overflowing - but how did the water get in? A little more investigation and you may find that you resolve this without us all guessing at what is happening?

Did you see Springwatch last night? Did I see it correctly that a climber went in to a tree to investigate a Red Kite nest using spikes? Is that normal behaviour for a climber in to the crown of a retained tree? I was under the impression that spiking to climb a healthy tree was not good practice? Introducing the potential for pathogens and other such nasty's as you break the bark exposing live wood! I am not an arborist but an arboriculturalist so I merely pose the question.......

Has that happened on all of them? Along the same cardinal point - all north or south or is it random? All done to approximately the same height? It could be vandalism - a set of steps in the middle of the night and a bit of bark stripping by neighbours maybe? Have a look in at the ground around the tree for ladder end marks or footprints? Knife marks in the wood? Not a very nice looking Ash either way.

Consideration for the following is advised; This species of tree is not accepted as appropriate by most councils so the TO is likely to look in favour of applying common sense should this tree be causing a nuisance. This species is likely to respond to pruning in such a way that the regrowth will be a financial burden on the council to maintain. You may be advised to exercise your right to prune back to boundary and if this is the case I suggest a hard prune til nothing overhangs to give you a gap year before having to address this again. The council maybe in favour of removal should they see fit. Heave can be an issue despite some never seeing it, it is apparent, I and I have experienced two instances in the past. The key here (as others have impressed upon you) is the need to establish the facts. Your house foundations (if built in the last 40 years or so) will have taken into account clay and dug them to a depth to overcome subsidence and heave. Also weigh up the cost of removal of the tree compared with bi-annual pruning against underpinning the tree. If you can subsequently prove the tree causes heave or subsidence you can approach the council for remediation costs but your investigative work must be proven, substantiated and upheld against appeal. This can take years! My preferred and obvious option (subject to CA and TPO checks) is to prune back to boundary of the council will not take action.

A recent holiday took me to Lincolnshire where I have to admit has the most beautiful trees I have seen for a while. A quintessential road called the Blue Stone Heath Road is a must should anyone be up that way - stunning with hedgerow trees just how I have always imagined that they should be. An Atlantic Cedar with approx. 2.0m girth. Planted in 1812 (verified) in the grounds of Gunby Hall, Lincolnshire by the Massingberd family. (Napoleon was bothering the British when this was planted! The Horse Chestnut was apparently already planted and thriving when the Cedar was planted (plant hunters gifted the family) so this one is extra old! To put some perspective on their size my daughter is standing at the base of the stem and she is 1.3m tall.

I used to go to site with the planning department staff as it is a two way process especially when considering the conditions you may have to impose on the developer like getting an afboricultural report or for them to consider a landscaping plan for example. You then learn the tree aspects and the arb person learns about planning. Good luck.

Guys, I would like to chip in on a couple of issues and please feel free to tell me to get back in my box. I admittedly have skim-read quite a lot of the thread and picked out the more important bits (it is all important I know). The first item I picked out was that you should have a tree with 40+ years expected life left to be able to give it an A grade. I gave a 2-300 (ref:Mitchell) year old Horse Chestnut an A only this week. A3 in fact. It is quite exceptional to have a Horse Chestnut live beyond 200 years (in my experience) but as this tree had historical and veteran credentials I applied it in this case. There are exceptions out there and I believe you can use them. The second point I am going to make is that I have been over to the dark side and was a Tree Officer. One comment stated that the task of the TO was to save trees for the community, another comment was that development happens no matter what - I would contest both these points with personal experiences. As TO, I read all of the Arb Reports (AIA and AMS), as did the others in the team that the planning authority placed on the developer as a condition of the planning application. (Developers only ask for consultants help when planning ask for a tree report and quite often developers don't tick the box that says 'are there any trees that will be affected by the development' when it is plain as day that next door has a whopping great tree with an RPA to cover most of the village!). We checked consultants credentials against professional bodies if they claimed to be members and also asked around for professional references from other 'well known' and 'reliable' consultants - there are rouges out there! The arb report was read, maps checked, TPO/CA maps checked and then a report was written about the proposed plan along with the consultants report that went to the planning committee. It was then that all objections were collated, reviewed by a panel and sometimes taken to a public meeting in chambers. Developers DO NOT always get their own way. As a responsible consultant it was only last week that I talked a developer in to not submitting an application on the grounds of protected trees and the difficulty they would need to overcome to build. So even the person writing the report can write it in a positive way but informing their client that perhaps it may be better to seek land elsewhere. As a TO, if trees were involved it was then up to us to TPO a tree if we believed that it would be in the public interest to do so. A TPO is not a constraint in a planning application only a consideration. By way of example; a 60 year old Birch probably has only another 20 years left (location and juxtaposition to solid structures taken in to account) so would you TPO that tree or ask for 2 extra-large standards in return, suitably located with a robust 5 year management plan? You'd TPO the new trees for sure once the management condition you placed on the developer had expired of course. The condition you would also apply is that if the tree died within 7 years you would want a 1 for 1 replacement. The conditions you can apply as a TPO are pretty endless as long as it is endorsed by the planning committee. So back to the 5837 - interpretation is half the battle, but what is key is that it is a guide. So for my ten-penneth, your experience, knowledge (your own and that of others when you ask for an opinion) is vital. Context is what you make of it - will the tree species you are looking at in its current condition (consider hydrology, location, air pollution, prevailing wind, local weather conditions, space to grow, companionship with other trees [think pollination too] and shape) survive within the time spans set out in the BS. <10, 10+, 20+ or 40+ It is a difficult ask but over time I see a tree, look it over for any significant defects (that is another thread for sure) and make a calculated decision. Your report reflects what you see to the TO and planning committee. If you like the look of the tree, where it is and believe its survival falls in to one of the BS categories go with your gut feeling. I reckon 9 times out of 10 you won't have to justify it and if you had to I bet you could! So Paul, going back to your original clump of trees all growing en-mass, all fighting for the same light, nutrients, water and oxygen do you think every one of them will live to the 20+ or 40+ Category you first mentioned? I have not seen the trees and I have no idea on spacing, light, water, oxygen and nutrient availability so you may be right. I am just fuelling your thought response neurones!

I have some concerns myself Paul. I will print this off and have a little bit of a think especially as this is my bread and butter nowadays - good thread!

The trees are not exposed parse, they are within what I would describe as a large garden with woodland. The bark is the same all around the stem AND in the crown on limbs over about 3 years old. These are the only mature Beech for some distance and I surmise that the original owner planted them along with sweet chestnut and oak for a crop? He may have kept pigs perhaps? There is a pond on site too - watering livestock maybe? I am unsure of the history of the site. The odd thing David is that only 1 out of the 5 looked like this. Tony, have you seen anything like this in your 'beech travels'? Marco

No don't I understand now - I thought you were leading on to some fancy hybrid that Beech produce when in proximity to 'other' Fagus sp. Oak are renown for being promiscuous so when I think I am looking at a good old English Oak the likelihood is that I am probably not! Thanks for the information but I feel confident that I can rule out Carpinus and Nothofagus at this stage but will look into other Fagus as suggested. Grateful for your help. If and when I pop back to site I will make sure I take evidence with me (if the crown is low enough for me to grab of course).

Sorry I have none to show and I won't be back at site for a while. When you say 'one of the trees with Beech like leaves' can you give me an example as to your line of thinking please?

For all you Beech tree enthusiasts I apologise if this has been covered previously but I have done a search I promise Here are photos of two Beech trees. They live together as a group of 5, all approximately the same age and in the back garden of a lovely property with LOTS of trees. In amongst the Sweet Chestnut, Birch and Oak is this stand of Beech. Wading through the trees you would think it was a Beech and an Ash (possibly) stood side by side but then the leaves give the game away. Why would one Beech have the traditional smooth bark and the other the fissured, 'cut' bark (as in an Ash)? I have been told a theory that when it was young scale insects attacted it and in doing so promoted the growth of the additional bark to protect itself and so stayed doing so to the present day. New shoots exhibit the smooth bark yet a tertiary branch of maybe 2 or 3 years old has the fissured bark. I welcome your thoughts, thank you

Nice pictorial story there David and good info for any future work to be considered.

David, I think what you can 'see' behind it is the other leg. Each keg was a different size and at the base of a couple of legs are what 'appears' to be the roots that have occluded as stumps. I am a numpty for not taking more interest but when you are out with the family i got too distracted with them and not by trees - I was having a day off......

Tree has four 'stilts' the centre is completely void and the wood occluded to form the legs. I reckon (theory) that innonotus dryadius attacked the base in the good old days and its survived by CODIT. I will make sure I go back and get some close-ups for you. If you ever venture across the water Osborne House and Quarr Abbey have some fab trees!

Regrettably no - however I am going back over the water in a week or so and will catch some then. I was out with the family and the twins were distracting me with their rendition of 'school jokes'!!

Good luck mate, ex-army (31 years) and in the business. Anything is possible if you want it bad enough. Everyone knows as an ex-squaddie that you are hardworking, don't moan and remain flexible. Oh and you don't care about the weather cos your skin's waterproof and you know you'll get your scran when you get home!

Saw this tree and thought of you.......all. A nice old oak on stilts - who said you can't retain unusual trees?

Just ordered my copy. By coincidence I have to visit a client with a veteran and offer some advice; I hope it arrives in time!

Hi David, Funny old thing but the morning I read the thread I was on my way to RHS Wisley and 'behold' I saw many, many trees that had girdled roots that indeed either grafted to the buttress or inhibited growth (on that side). Conifers too but the affect not apparent? I now wish I had taken a few pics. I do (as a matter of fact) note on tree surveys that girdling roots is a consideration for concern. I have in my past seen a tree succumb to windthrow due to the comparatively small root ball it grew with. The planting pit must have been 'glazed' during the preparation process as the roots just spiralled in the ground and had little structural value to the support of the stem and crown. I have as a matter of course always suggested to my wife (RHS Plantswoman) that when she plants a tree she should sever the roots she can not physically untangle from a spiral within the (root) ball to give the tree a better chance of sending out some supporting laterals. To date it has been successful (fingers are crossed David). I don't have the luxury of an airspade or I would make roads in to more investigative work. Hand tools are a very good substitute I hear you say! This is a very interesting thread and I just wonder if some girdling affects some species over others (I apologise if amongst the papers I printed this is obvious but I have a weekend booked to wade through these coming up!) I will keep my eye on this thread.