LGP Eddie

Yes absolutely, but it’ll end up more of a prove your compliant or your not coming on type situation for many, once there’s more actual clarification of what Clients should be looking for. Eddie.

I just wanted to give a very simple example, I’ll use a Doosan Dx140LCR as these are very popular carrier machines. This is in the standard UK type 700mm track pads and 3mtr Dipper configuration, and the load chart is showing the capacity at maximum reach over the front and side. Basically we’re just looking for the lowest figure. Remember this is with absolutely nothing, not even the bucket pins, so you’d have to factor in having a quick hitch and pins subtracted already from these figures. So basically a quick look gives us the lowest figure of 1670kg at 7.45 metres of radius over the side. Take a quick hitch from that and let’s call it 1600kg for easy figures. A Westtech c350 without head Bracket in full spec is: Yes without head bracket it’s already outside the carrier machines capacity at 1620kg in full spec. If I give you an alternative to show how it simply needs a larger carrier, this is the chart for a Liebherr 920 Compact that would be the next class up so to speak. Basically depending on actual configuration as Liebherr list 4 options, the 920 Compact will give 2100kg at the very least, actually 2300 in the spec you’d have it at 7.4 metres radius over the side. A quick jiggle with subtracting a quick hitch, top bracket and the Westtech c350 in full spec, basically gives me 500kg of capacity in that Shear at the same reach assuming I spec the Liebherr in the 2300kg configuration. Fairly obviously come an incident, you’re totally shafted with the Doosan setup in standard form. Obviously you can all dust off your own brochures or download most online to see for yourself on different configurations. I hope this shows what’s being looked at and why. The figures are there, the options for a solution are many and varied, but mostly involves either simply fitting a smaller/lighter Shear, taking the machine in a different configuration with shorter arm, wider pads etc, or the addition of more counterweight. Eddie.

So pleased you asked as basically a grab used on an Excavator is a Lifting Operation, and yes I see no reason as to why should something happen under the present rules, not having a correctly specced/certified setup or some form of lift plan couldn’t be applied to a roofmount collecting timber. It’s more about how the setups are specced, so you put a Tiltrotator on an Excavator and convert a heavy old Selector Grab to use under it. You could end up with 50kg of capacity to go to work with! This is where the changes are required, and to make full use of that capacity you really need something like the Prolec to give you real time information of what’s being picked up. If you knowingly send a machine with only 250kg of capacity in its configuration to load lumps of 1000kg and it’s lying on its side, then it’s obviously not going to end well. With regard to Forestry I’d say they’ve by default got their own house in order? The purpose built kit is always well on top of the task, is rarely fitted with aftermarket accessories, and once that Tree is down and into product, everything down the chain is working nicely, well with it’s design limitations. Obviously legislation is already in place to ensure it was correctly specified at manufacture and is tested on a regular basis. The use of something like a Truck with Hiab and Grab to collect Arb material is increasingly common, we’ve all done it and yes I see no reason why such setups won’t escape. It’s a lifting operation, often some big old lumps and a lot could go wrong. Again it’s not going to stop anyone, just measures in place to ensure it’s a safe operation. In such instances you could probably simply use a load cell to check out anything that’s near limits, and it’s not a huge task to cut a piece off compared to putting a Truck back on its wheels. I keep going back to the Unimog, because this is exactly the situation we are in now with Shears and Grabs on Excavators. You can fill your boots until it actually goes wrong, the legislation is already in place, they’ve managed to stay under the radar because on the whole most at the front line have been doing a pretty good job. However they’ve spread to the masses and now flagged up big time on the radar. We haven’t a trade association that can pull guys together to formulate a best practice, so it’s inevitable that guys who sit outside the true new industry that has sprung up will be involved. Mention trees and everyone thinks ask someone in Forestry. Couldn’t be further removed from your average high compliance Tree Shear applications. I know it’s going on because a few different people have reached out and said, you do a bit of this, what’s your take on it. It would be nice to get some interested parties together to see if a straightforward best practice and guidance for setups and their operation could be formulated by those doing the job, rather than have it pushed on us by guys who’ve never done a shift at it. The Demolition Industry does exactly this, they almost legislate themselves and guide the HSE as to best practice for the operation of some setups that make the average Excavator and Tree Shear look pretty insignificant. Eddie.

I wasn't knocking the idea, like I say someone always has to go first and the solution is already there, tested/proven on the sliding axle fast tow forwarding trailers. Those were a few of the obvious pitfalls I could see, but who knows it may be a fantastic success? In the good old days you could build it yourself, but I'd assume this would involve some form of testing on the trailer, so could be costly going first. Eddie.

Probably a whole new thread, but most look on here with an interest in all things Excavator and Tree work related, and I just wanted to give a general heads up that the honeymoon is really going to be coming to an end very shortly on the whole explosion of their use in such work. Probably some welcome news for guys that have seen there use erode traditional methods, but whilst I predict it's going to be an awful lot more difficult to spec and use such setups, they're never going away, such is their safety and productivity when used correctly. How do I know? Basically things are hotting up behind the scenes on two fronts, with many interested but not quite fully joined up parties exploring these aspects, and it's only time now before it all gets rolled out. It's time a few in the industry had a pot of tea somewhere to formulate a sensible case to argue back when it all breaks cover, in the likely event it all gets over the top. The Operator card scheme is classic example, nobody was ready for it being rolled out, and look at the mess it's got us in now! Just a heads up for anyone currently running or speccing an Excavator and Shear at present. First is the whole cab guarding issue, it's not gone away, it'll be here soon enough, and expect once some guidance arriving, if you're onto any of the more compliance orientated applications, expect them to go straight to wanting to see something tested on the front and top of the Cab. Not a lot of solutions out there, Cabcare cover some not all, they're not 100% focused on this application, but I expect they'll gear up a lot more if anything comes forward to insist on it. The second is the whole Tree Shear and is it a Lifting Operation debate? No point anyone arguing, the going has been good a long time now, and it was only a matter of time before someone said hold on what's this all about? It can always be argued that how do you know how much you're lifting until you've cut it? The reply would be leave that Shear firmly on the floor if you can't prove it can safely handle the task. Some argue it's not a lifting operation, but the HSE take the view that a Grab or even Magnet suspended from an Excavator is a lifting device, and will require a lift plan for it's operation. Basically it's all being looked at, no prizes for predicting the outcome, it's going to be a Lifting Operation, you're still obviously going to be able to use Shears on an Excavator, but there's going to be a fair bit more paperwork and costs involved. It'll require a lift plan by someone competent, and I'd reasonably expect that to include some calculations as to the maximum size of tree/limb section you can cut with the specified setup etc. Basically a proper survey of the site etc, and possibly even a someone working with the machine to ensure it's not going outside what has been identified as safe. As for the actual Excavator and Shear, things are going to change, as you'll need a Prolec or similar on almost all to get your full capacity throughout the whole working envelope, and base carriers are obviously going to get a lot bigger in relation to the Shear. The current crop of 14 tonne class machines running 350 Westtech or copy of them Shears that take them outside the load chart with just the Shear and quick hitch alone, are going to be looking for much lighter alternatives. The Shear will have to state it's SWL and be tested on a regular basis under Loler, obviously the Excavator can carry a Shear with an SWL more than it's capacity, but this will have to weigh in under the lowest rating on the duty chart, plus leave enough capacity to lift what the load plan has identified. The current situation of Shears on machines that are outside what the Excavator can lift on it's duty chart before anything is even lifted has obviously been the catalyst for all this, and some inexperienced guys simply refusing to take a top out, before going in at the bottom to minimise the risk hasn't helped. Big lumps in Shears look great, but not when the back track is 2ft off the ground! You could go down the route of using Prolec etc to restrict radius to gain more capacity, but the reality is you're just going to be putting bigger carriers under Shears going forward. Don't shoot the messenger, it's exactly the same as the bit I wrote about Unimogs the other day, some will comply, some won't whilst there's good money to be made, the difference here is that it may not just be the cab bars you're having your tea behind if you want to have a bad day out with the HSE and a big book! Eddie.

It could be done pretty straightforward with an adjustable sliding axles setup similar to the fast tow forwarding trailers that have exactly the same issues of nose weight whilst empty. The additional benefit is you can bring the axles right forward to make it easier to manoeuvre for access. Standard 750kg class Chipper on the drawbar and bin on the back. Self contained 3.5 tonne unit, I’d estimate around 2 tonne of chip capacity? Custom build, unknown resale, could be a clumsy lump? Who knows, someone has to go first sometimes. My thoughts would be it can’t be that hard to simply move up a weight class on the towing vehicle to stay traditional setup and carry the extra chip required. Eddie.

I tried them up at Wilsons and thought them brilliant. Much easier if you’ve multiple operators, as anyone coming from an Excavator will get on with them straight away. They would make a massive difference to a decent length shift. Eddie.

I don't know if your local dealer will do you one? Eddie.

Facts are this isn’t about the MD spying on your movements, it’s just them keeping up with the demands of their own clients. Things have moved on and the ability to provide clients with almost real time information of what they’re paying for, with actual timings, images, graphs, charts etc is pure gold to all involved. The manager of the actual client will have to spell out up the chain clearly how his budget is going, how he’s striving to ensure things are properly and efficiently delivered. Taking the branded Tablet he’ll be provided with F.O.C from the Contractor they chose to deliver their work into his meetings to provide all the required data is a very easy win. It can have its uses especially in Winter Maintenance, you clear and grit a site, take your photos, have the screen signed by a manager of the site etc. Someone falls down later in the day claiming it’s not been cleared, that client has everything from when the call out was issued, what the site was like on arrival, to measures undertaken that have mitigated the risk. Again pure gold to them. It’s just how it is and if you don’t want to find your own contracts and wish to continue down this route, just suck it up. I never wished to drive a machine looking like an orange Teletubbie, half or full day inductions plus a medical to go on almost every site, more worthless tickets than a raffle, pay about 25k to fit everything from green lights to say the seatbelt is on, more lights than a Xmas tree, monitors for every movement, to putting hi viz tape on the grab handle and steps to even get in the cab! However if I wish to continue to work in the sort of environments I do, there’s no point fighting against it. No way of dressing it up, either get your own show or spend the extra time in the van getting some alternative work and finding a way to ensure your costs to them now include another £40 every month. Eddie.

It only becomes pointless with unrealistic expectations. If you wish to remove the usual bramble etc and anything up to about 4”, or just have a good old clear up at the end of a job you’ll be fine. I recently worked with a 6 tonne JCB which had a Lipa Flail on, which I know has had an awful lot of hard use with no issues. I was impressed with it’s performance for a swinging hammer flail, but once I took a look at the actual flails I could see why, as they were absolute monsters! Guys are having great success with the Femac units, Osma from Exac-One have always been good. FAE if you want to spend that sort of money, simply loads of choice. Best advice is borrow/hire one before you purchase to see if it’ll do what you require? Eddie.

I’d say it’s really not that grey just like moving Plant Machinery with Tractors, it’s just the rewards still far outweigh the risks. Big money to be made with a Mog for guys on the large Highway Clearances etc. I’d assume the same on Domestic work with the right setup. Lets face it, put some white diesel in it and blag the rest. As one guy who recently rang me to help spec him an Excavator for site clearance said, “I’m going to pull it behind my Mog”. I replied “I wouldn’t like to get into all that Haulage paperwork hassle”, his response was “forget all that just tell them you’re going ditching or whatever I’ll run it off the Farm anyway.” It’s just how the job is, no point getting excited about it, someone will always be bending the rules, how many going on about it will have the correct Tacho setup for towing their Ifor Trailer, or a Transit with Chip body and 5 leaf springs so it’s level when totally overloaded? Not saying it’s right, but many who get excited about such things will still hire in such solutions for the saving and extra profit. Eddie.

Almost certainly got it on fine, slewed 90 and she’s gone over backwards with arm right up and no attachment on. Some Dealers insist you reverse these on and never slew them around in such instances. Eddie.

I wanted exactly the same when I had my Farmi 260 and fully understand where you're coming from. Farmi now have such as system as an option which may be worth a look, but for something custom I'd ring Global, as they're well used to fitting such systems to all sorts of bandit custom builds. Eddie.

It just wouldn’t flow share or grade anything like the Dash 3, it was slow on arm movements, but incredibly powerful. I used to say Kubota managed to build a Crane not an Excavator with it. It was much improved by some tweaks, and went on to be a top performer with me for heavy attachments, but I never looked forward to much more than a bit of scratching about with a bucket. One particularly annoying feature was an air conditioning fan that was by the right hand cab window, and the noise from it was horrendous. Kubota were slow to accept there were issues, but have reacted with the much improved Dash 4 Alpha version. However they’ve done nothing more with the cab and I think many others have now caught up. People ask me about them, they’re still as strong and reliable, you just need to have a good demo before purchase as they’re a bit of a marmite machine. The one machine I’m waiting to get to grips with is the new CAT309 CR VAB but it’s already won the award for the worst afterthought ever seen, with what is an absolute howler of an additional counterweight!? Eddie.

I did exactly the same with a Kubota Kx080-4, coming from the legend of a Dash 3, but the difference was I’d spent an awful lot of conversion money on it before finding out it wasn’t Kubota’s finest hour.? Eddie.

Getting good ones is now hard, nobody’s willing to part with them, the replacement didn’t really better it, they don’t deprecate hardly, and are just so useful. I suppose proof so far is nobody’s ever been back on here to say they’re a pile of shite and they lost their shirt on one. Just for the past few years have been a very safe toe in the water, but most soon jump up a bit in scale and spec having seen what a machine can achieve for them. Eddie.

TB016 will boss it easy enough, the manipulation available makes all the difference. Eddie.

There’s a few options but I’d always spec a 5 tonne rotator for the little price difference. Touch over 2.5K including the VAT, depending on the final spec. Obviously a bit of pipework to budget for when it arrives. Pipes are always best sorted on the machine unless there’s an established pattern available. Eddie.

This is a great setup for the 1.5 tonners, a TG12 UG7 Intermercato Grab. I supplied this one with 6 way valve so the customer could switch from Grab to Rotate as like most he only had one auxiliary circuit. This he piped himself on the Grab, but you can also install the valve on the machine, whatever works best for the individual. The difference between this and free swinging is night and day and allows you to get the best out of the Excavator. Obviously more expensive, but nobody goes back, and will hold its money tremendously as they’re always sought after. Eddie.

I don’t know if they’re still going but a company called Fabrication by Design in Redditch used to do all the custom work for AR Demolition, who in my opinion have some of the best Excavator setups at work in the UK. Worth a call. Eddie.

Certainly no more experience than buying one, having a good crack at it and moving it on. The Valtra was brilliant because we were able to ditch the pto Pump and simply select how much oil we put through the valve block to make it fast enough yet controllable. It’s a while ago now, but we somehow worked out how to control it all through the mini joystick of the Valtra and straight off the spools which would have been nice. Certainly if you’ve a roofmount Tractor and one comes up, it may be a real handy thing in someone’s armoury. I may be completely wrong, but in my experience for 60 tonne, get yourself a good fixed mount rotating grab on your machine to do the donkey work and a decent cutter, you’ll soon have your 60 tonne and a tidy job. Eddie.

Been there in a similar way, but my applications were all for low impact non commercial applications, in terms that site impact and improvement was the main consideration not profit from the timber. I started a thread on it and went on to actually purchase a Kesla Stroke Head, but in reality never used it. Everything just gets sheared now. The Stroke Processor was good, and in the time we had, Greg really cracked the operation of it and it was doing the job nicely. I’d say they’re for a roofmount tractor though ideally. Eddie

Done some mulling it over, I’d say 65k ish, to build a nice, I’m going to say 10 tonne unit, basically the full fat 8 tonner class or even better a Komatsu Pc118 if you can find one. That would be with twin boom mounted wheel motor winches and fixed mount Intermercato grab. Get in a lot of places and do a huge variety of work. Eddie.

What would be your preferred base Excavator to mount this kit to? Eddie.

Twin Wheel Motor Winches on the Boom, just smaller scale like that one on the JCB Blade for a smaller carrier machine. Be 30k I’d expect Radio Remote. John Craig will tell you. Eddie.