sean freeman

Well said...absolutely the same is true here Jonathan.

Tony was the tree in your pic recently cut or has it been a stump for some time before the fruiting bodies developed so ubiquitously:confused1:

They are amazing aren't they (both the trees and the people!) There is something quite arresting about listening to and watching someonme who has such a grasp of real time...safe useful life expectancy anyone:thumbup1:

Bugger...part of me was hoping it was a mistake or misunderstanding...very ad especially after the propping was attempted.

I have heard that the propped Doomsday Oak has failed.

I would think reading through the some of the relevant (freely available) documents here might be a good place to start Treework Environmental Practice - Press Releases and Publications • Fay, N. (2007) Defining Age and Surveying Veteran & Ancient Trees A discussion paper on criteria for surveying veteran and ancient trees • Fay, N & Rose, B. (2003) The Importance of Surveying Veteran Trees: An emerging crisis in old tree populations Proceedings of "Working & Walking in the Footsteps of Ghosts". International Conference, Sheffield Hallam University. • Fay, N. & de Berker, N. (1997) Level 1 (Introductory survey form) English Nature • Fay, N. & de Berker, N. (1997) The Specialist Survey Method Level 2 & 3 - Veteran Trees Initiative, English Nature* ©. • Fay, N. & de Berker, N. (2003) The Evaluation of the Specialist Survey Method for Veteran Tree Recording ©, English Nature Research Report Nº 529, English Nature* ©.

Has anyone been past Ashton Court in the last few weeks?

You can be assured that Guy is made of tougher stuff and has been posting on forums for long enough not to be put out by 'forum sports'. I do think however that there has been some misreading of the silent voice in his posts, in other words I suspect had he been speaking on the phone or in person the communication might have been less spikey...although I could be completely wrong there too... :>)

Some really beautiful pics there David . I really hope there are fewer and fewer Arborists who would simply condemn a tree on the basis of their ID skills on a fungal fruiting body. I like to think (kid myself) that even in the warm northern lands of my home state there are less and less instances when trees are cut down "cause its got fungus":thumbdown: All that having been written...(I know kinda unecessary commentary)...it is interesting how many identifications in Gerrit's experience were wrong esp with species that I am guessing many would feel (unjustifiably) confident about getting right. A lesson there for all (esp me!!!)

No Gerrit I am not familiar with that dissertation, thankyou for the link. I want to thank Guy for highlighting an area of woodland ecology that I had completely brushed past (lierally as well as figuratively)...Epiphytic lichens abd bryophytes...:sneaky2:argh! another massive list of papers to struggle through and new researchers to introduce myself to and win over to giving of their time and thoughts. I suppose that I started with a focus on saproxylic beetles and the fungi that many of them seem to have associations with because that was (and still is) the main focus of the research being done here in Oz that (seemed to me)related to the topic of deadwood habitats in older tree species. There is an unwillingness here to accept the value of research from overseas in this field of woodland/forest ecology, so finding parallels in Aussie research is really important if you want to be even listened to, let alone be taken seriously. The recognition of the importance of deadwood habitats both in the trees and on the ground is enshrined in Federal, State and (some) local government documentation highlighting key ecological values and expressing the need to act (without providing any real direction as to how such action might be manifest). NB - I was NOT trying to imply that our government bodies think aerial deadwood is special in anyway - In this regard (looking from the outside at least) the European legislative record is somewhat better, the Red Book has enabled many levels of government to develop local/regional action plans. Some of these are specific to classes of organisms and even down to a individual species, we are yet to move much beyond the furry cute organisms here. The published papers I have from US forestry journals suggests to me that similar considerations of deadwood habitat values (almost exclusively standing stags and logs on ground) is something recognised by environmental scientists in commercial forestry there too.

Tony I think Guy is just trying to establish what reliable information there is in relation to the ecological values of aerial deadwood, and by that I would like to include standing stems, monoliths, stags. Basically deadwood which has not fallen to the ground. I think you make a very valid point about smaller twigs and it seems perfectly logical to me, organisms that might use such ephemeral structures are (if they are to have long term survival strategies) not likely to be obligate to those structures remaining in the tree canopy for very long. Larger branches limbs and stems...my reading and interactions have led to the opinion that there are fungi and invertebrates which will not be able to obtain their habitat requirements (either for almost all their life cycle or at least critical portions of their life cycle) from fallen tree parts, or in the case of managed trees deadwood cut from the tree and placed in sections on the ground. I have used the term 'essential' to describe this aerial habitat and I think I should think more carefully about that descriptor...thanks to Guy for helping me recognise a looseness in my logic and understanding of what is actually even more complex a set of relationships (more organisms more subtlety) than I had previously considered. In a very real sense the sanitisation of deadwood from trees is a huge problem in Australia and I know it is recognised as a major threat to the ecological values of both the urban and peri-urban environment in Europe and the USA. Commercial forestry across the globe has committed resources to studying the impacts of different variations of woodlot management in respect to deadwood retention - but not looking specifically at comparing an ecological assessment of standing deadwood vs CWD on the ground. There are some good studies into the ecology of many of your European red-listed saproxylic beetles, and certainly organisms like Violet Click beetle ~ Limoniscus violaceus ---- (Alexander, K 1988 'The Development of an Index of ecological continuity for deadwood associated beetles', Alexander, K 1994 'The use of freshly downed timber by insects following the 1987 storm', Alexander, K; Green, E; Key, R 1996 'The management of over mature tree populations for nature conservation - basic guidelines', Fowles, A; Alexander, K; Key, R 1999 'The saproxylic quality index:evaluating wooded habitats for the conservation of deadwoodcleoptera' Green, E 1996 'Deadwood for wildlife' Lonsdale, D; Fry, R 1991 'Habitat conservation for insects - a neglected green issue' Read, H 2000 'Veteran trees: a guide to good management (and yes I have corresponded with almost all those authors over the past four years) A great many of the Red List invertebrates need ancient standing hollow stems, but since for most of those it is actually the interface between deadwood and soil that is critical to their early life cycle...they are hardly helping the arguement for dead branch retention. All that having been said (or rather written) there are also studies that point to the fact that some less well known saproxylic organisms (including those occuring here in Oz) are being found only in brown (or red) rot decay in very large diameter stems/limbs ---- Ulyshen, M; Hanula, J 2008 'Habitat associations of saproxylic beetles in the southeast United States: A comparison of forest types, tree species and wood postures' Drapeau, P; Nappi, A; Imbeau, L; Saint-Germain, M 2009 'Standing deadwood for keystone bird species in the eastern boreal forest: Managing for snag dynamics' Sobek, S; Steffan-Dewenter, I; Scherber, C; Tscharntke, T 2009 'Spatiotemporal changes of beetle communities across tree diversity gradient' Sirami, C; Jay-Robert, P; Brustel, H; Valladares, L et al 2008 'Saproxylic beetle assemblages of old Holm-Oak trees in teh mediterranean region: role of keystone structure in a changing heterogeneous landscape Bishop, D; Majka, C; Bondrup-Nielson, S; Peck, S 2009 Deadwood and saproxylic beetle diversity in naturally disturbed and managed spruce forests in Nova Scotia CRC (Australia) for tropical Rainforest Ecology and Management 2001 Rainforest beetles in deadwood could loggin be their downfall? Yee, M (Part of Thesis Uni Tasmania) 2009 'Biodiversity and ecology of log dependant beetles native to Tasmanian wet eucalypt forests: implications for their conservation in production forests Ducasse, J; Brustel, H 2008 'Saproxylic beetles in the Gresigne forest management Kirby, P 2001 'Wimpole Park saproxylic beetle survey' Alexander, K 2008 'Tree biology and saproxylic coleoptera: issues of definitions and conservation language' Jurc, M; Ogris, N; Pavlin, R; Borkovic, D 2008 'Forest as a habitat of saproxylic beetles on Natura 2000 sites in Slovenia' Grove, S 2009 'A decade of deadwoodology at Warra' Wardlaw, T; Grove, S et al 2009 'The uniqueness of habitats in old eucalypts; contrasting wood decay fungi and saproxylic beetles of young and old Eucalypts' Grove, S et al 2008 'Long term experimental study of saproxylic beetle succession in Tasmanian E. obliqua logs: findings from teh first five years' Yee, M et al 2006 'Brown rot in inner heartwood: why large logs support characteristic saproxylic beetle assemblages of conservation concern' Johansson, T 2006 Thesis - The conservation of saproxylic beetles in boreal forest: importance of forest management and deadwood characteristics' Since I want to watch the rugby at someone else's place tonight (I don't have a TV) I will curtail the list of research papers that I have found to contain data that supports the view that deadwood above ground is critical to the life cycles of certain saproxylic species. I have communicated with all the Australian authors and their supervisors (in the case of the published thesis) but not with the overseas authors in this 2nd list. I believe all these papers are still freely available but if not I will make sure they can be accessed from the VTGA document site (which is being updated it takes time to get permission from article authors!)

Nice post Tony, we are all working in different environments where though I believe the fundementals are shared, the specific interactions and relationships between trees and their associates are often very different. Gerrit has highlghted what I already knew (but did not really recognise the scale!) that in Oz we are somewhat hamstrung by the lack of mycological work and its attention having been elsewhere (not on the ecology of our wood decay fungi). Though I believe (perhaps self delusionally) we are going in the same general direction I am certainly not on the same path as some Arbs...again I like to tell myself it is due to factors relating to their different working environment, and different focus...though sometimes I really wonder about that too. I feel a long way away from those who would seperate out trees from their associates and present what are (IMO) simplified tree 'artifacts' and the subsequent 'solutions'. I don't have all the answers, I'm not even clear about what all the questions are. However I am certain the lack of understanding and acknowledgement of tree time (and what it means for sustainable options in tree management) needs to be addressed by those of us able to commit time and resource to do so.

Thanks Tony I will follow up on those.

Thanks Gerrit, I understood the relationship as you described sorry if my choice of grammatical syntax was confusing (It confuses lots including me sometimes!)...I was wondering if you knew if this behaviour extended beyond L.betulinus to other Lenzites sp?

Hello Gerrit, two questions... 1. Do you know if the parasitism of Trametes versicolor is something common to other Lenzites sp? (we have Lenzites acuta recorded in Queensland...which is what I think is in the photos below) 2. Is there one or two general (or specific) texts that you know of which covers this important aspect of fungal ecology? (I don't mind that they will be Nth Hemisphere based I am interested in getting a better understanding of the ecology.)

Have to agree that is not what I would consider to be a pollard...The response on the beech is very dramatic.

IME we Arborists have that affliction in common David, very few of us (me included ) take the time to be clear about what we can show/support with strong evidence, and what we feel/assume/believe/etc... In some ways it can be an excellent facet of an open approach that permits lateral thought, but somewhat more likely and commonly it can lead to mistakes/errors in accuracy. I am the laziest person I know so I know that I regularly make mistakes and generalisations in conversation and forum posts that are of course intended to promote lateral thought.

"We'll try and get a 'quintessentially' English pint or three at a pub overlooking something similar, when you make it over " That sir is a given, very much looking forward to the opportunity.

Thanks for posting that David...quintessentially English scene at least in my mind:thumbup1:

It might be of some tangental interest that Paul Stamets has in the past put up the idea of using an innoculum of Sparassis crispa along the edge of forestry lots as a means to halt the advance of other more damaging decay fungi into the valued timber.

Neat little video Tony :>)

I would humbly suggest that anyone who is seriously interested in tis aspect of Arb consultancy work should visit the Arboricultural Information Exchange website Welcome to the Arboricultural Information Exchange. and read the Case Law examples. Tort Law in the UK is extremely well developed and the manner in which relevant responsibilities are attributed is repeatedly defined in every case. There is not (IMO) any disrespect to the memory of any individual who has been killed or seriously injured by the balanced examination of what is known about the circumstances of the specific case (provided of course that such a discussion does not represent sub judice). BTW I personally feel that whilst it is difficult for some to accept at an emotional level that human life could (or indeed should) be defined monetarily it is so defined, and has been for quite some time...and this 'price or worth' of a human life is precisely what enables the risk management process to be carried out across every aspect of all our lives.

Brilliant approach:thumbup1: but I'd be getting that bricky back to redo the arch hard to get good help even back then:sneaky2:

Brilliant (really envious of edie too BTW nice one).

Ha ha I thought I'd coined that one:biggrin:...great minds and fools eh?