sean freeman

Very good...thanks for that enjoyed it greatly vry funny...and of course part of me wishing ..if only.

Great pics, great thread...greater message,

Not unrelated...since I suspect that like me you fear that this is a likely consequence of the blunt instrument (brain of the tree/highway inspector) being applied. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuxC3rxXMIo&feature=related]YouTube - The tragedy of the roadside tree[/ame] I think that QTRA might provide you with an additional tool with which to both interpret the assessible risk and present the results of that assessment to the tree owner/manager/custodian. But I do feel you already have the capacity to present your assessment in an understandable manner that should not result in knee jerk tree felling...in the end I think we can only lead others towards gaining a more realistic understanding of tree and fungal ecology, of tree physiology and functional biology...I have come to recognise that we cannot force them to move forward (not that this is what you are necessarily talking about), that is something they have to do themselves.

Nice post Hama, and yes (IMO) this is just one more good example of behaviour a fungi as an endophyte without pathogenisis until the external conditions (external to the fungi - inside the tissues of the host) change. It is really REALLY important to stimulate both greater appreciation and inquiry of these relationships....all of us tend to fall back on broad generalisations that are easy to repeat to others (tree owners, other arbs, general public) even when we know there is more going on...it is normal to want to simplify things somewhat...but in doing so we need to be cautious that the we don't loose the very essence of the relationship between trees and other organisms (fungi in particular). Thankyou for pointing towards this very specific piece of evidence.

I'm sure you're right Ted just felt that the extra focus should be considered in terms of managing the site for the protection of the tree.... whist it is 'contemplating' its next move (my words) It would be great to get your view on the impact and your prognosis

The general feeling from ATF colleagues is that the tree does has a reasonable chance of reshooting...however there is a concern that given the publicity more people will be walking to and around the tree, and having an impact on the soil and the roots. Clearly having adequate compaction protection be that a fence further out and/or a mulched area will be important to the recovery of this tree. Hopefully someone (land owner) is taking steps to ensure that such steps are being taken.

Even the sponsers will be happy:sneaky2: ()

Just one more thread that helps enrich the mind and soul....thankyou lovely (and clever) pictures

I also read about htis a few hours ago...having since partaken of some evening sustinance...I am somewhat tired and emotional. The occaisional short sighted selfish stupidity of humans never ceases to amaze me...and yes I am not pretending that I have not done much (MUCH) worse in my time...I am part of the human club. I just hope that this incredibly resiliant little tree (for not the first time in its existance) is able to regenerate itself again from the stump...reiterative regrowth is something we should all marvel at. I hope there are some Glastonbury Arbs on Arbtalk who might keep us informed about what happens to the tree.

Your recent and ongoing cold weather might be horrid to work in but it makes for some very beautiful pictures:thumbup1:

That is a beautiful picture...thanks for posting it.

Great thread guys...am enjoying it muchly:thumbup1:...even though we have our own ID issues this side of the dividing water...just wondering if in relation to your thoughts (quoted above) do Ganoderma spores stain reddish in iodine solution??...since Phellinus do...that might be one way of quickly checking in the field:confused1:

Interesting Cider gums are often not considered the best of the genus in many ways (two forms btw gunnii ~ a tree up to 25m tall... and archeri ~ generally considered to have poor straggly form almost mallee) I wonder if its popularity over there is related to the use of its leaves in floriculture? Cider gums are endemic to Tasmania on the plains and central highlands...the overall distribution is in the cold humid to wet climatic zone...sort of sounds like some parts of the UK? It is frost tolerant and grows in altitudes where severe frosts and snow fall are numerous (good thing given your current weather!) In its natural range mean annual rainfall is between 800 - 2800mm per year so each of you can decide weather that is relevant or not based on what you believe is driving and influencing evapotranspiration:sneaky2:.

Tony I posted whilst you were typing you previous, however to address some of what you wrote and hopefully point towards why I feel so negatively towards the general advice regarding trees and subsidence...(Also of cousre I meant empirical not impirical...I blame my primary school teacher..nah just kidding lovely lady) Eucalyptus is a huge and diverse genus with over 700 species, it is simply not true to try and argue that Eucs in general are adapted to arid conditions, they occur in the tropics, sub-tropics and temperate regions of our continent. There is certainly validity (IMO) in your observation of the influence of the soil profile and moisture gradients in which trees have establuished and the architecture of the root system...however I would caution again about over generalising about the evolutionary factors at play in any one specific Eucalyptus sp. i.e. You would not find many Australian Arbs trying to argue that E. camaldulensis or E. grandis are likely to have shallow roots in soil profiles with high moisture content. Like all other tree species I can think of Eucs have evolved startegies to limit water losses during the hotest part of the day. They are remarkably similar to the other members of the Myrtaceae family in the way these have been expressed in the form and structure of their leaves. There is (IMO) far more relevance in the site hydrology and geotechnical data (and as you alluded to Tony the building construction method!) than in the tree species when it comes to potential (or actual) subsidence impacts.

It is unfortunate that the UK produces the same ridiculous classification systems for trees that we have here in some of our buidling standards..rather like the nonsense in that Canadian document...a scientific fact really requires some impirical evidence rather than a 'scientist' making a statement. It is why the LTOA guidelines are (IMO) more useful and relevant.

I try very hard to drag clients and insurers kicking and screaming into science when it comes to these kinds of claims made about trees...and yes sometimes that means the tree is found to be a significant factor, sometimes not. Sadly we have an appauling Australian Standard (AS2870) when it comes to considering the potential impact of vegetation on building foundations...it could have (may have!) been written by an underachieving inattentive high school student biology student.

Go here Downloads | Risk Limitation Strategy for Tree Root Claims and download the Risk limitation strategy read through chapter 6 'Levels of Evidence' and then consider whether you think your tree would fall into any of those criteria, then you will be better placed and prepared to mount a defence (or not) of your tree and the claims of its relationship to the subsidence. It is far from straight forward nor is it simplistically causal...that you have clay soils is not good since as Steve B indicated these can be highly reactive to alterations in relative moisture content. It is very very hard to definatively prove (probably impossible) that any specific piece of vegetation is not having an influence on soil moisture, and that fluctuations in soil moisture are not having an impact on the physical structure of the soil body..hence any structure built on or in that soil body. That having been said do read the LTOA document. One final aside I personally have never read any convincing evidence that Eucs are any more demanding in their rates of evapotranspiration than other tree species..the modelling and maths required to put figures on those rates are quite literally frightening.

This is, like a great many threads on Arbtalk (started by hama) wonderfully thought provoking, and that it generates disagreement (differences in opinion) is part of its greatest strength. For me there is a real trap that a huge number of thinkers (be they Arbs/ecologists/mycologists/virologists/sociologists) whatever their chosen label fall into and that is the teleological trap. It is perfectly understandable that we percieve and interpret the world as if other organisms were motivated by the same morass of emotional white noise that seems to drive us....and there are a number of very effective methods to counter that anthropomorphism. Sometimes imbuing other organisms with very 'human' emotions can be illuminating and help refine a particular perspective...sometimes it just obscures things even more. Teleology on the other hand is NOT at all helpful and to me is a kind of apriori reductionism that can stop creative thought in its tracks. For me it is not useful to develop a perspective on the relationship between fungi and tree that requires backwards causation to explain the principle aspects, to have intellectual rigour (to have an arguement/perspective that stands up to examination) if we are to attribute mentalistic mechanisms to organisms like fungi we need to be very precise and clear about our terms....otherwise what might well be a valid point will be lost to the reader/listener. To those (and by the quality of the various discussions here I have the opinion there appear to be quite a few of you) who have read around and talked around these issues, I know there is a substantive and critical difference between the simplifications of teleology and some of the published examinations of the multitude of factors at play influencing a particular 'climatic pulse' expressed in the species and age distribution within a particular community. Anyway for fear of disappearing up my own mental culdesac, reading some of these threads I wish I was nearer to ole blighty...I know I would gain a great deal from spending a day on a tramp with you guys listening to your thoughts about the manifestation of these relationships in some of your fabulous woodland environments.

Now that is a seriously cool photograph

Brilliant thread I will watch with great interest to see how the tree reacts to the changes around its roots system. Welcome to the macadamia clan...though I suspect you have been a shell carrying member for some time.

Two shots of Aseroe rubra as red and as prolific as I have ever seen them, then a shot of Lysurus mokusin all taken today in the mulch at the Regional Botanic Gardens Gold Coast...it has been raining here for almost week.

Ashbourne is pretty I know it quite well used to walk the dales regularly as a young lad. I do think the training was good, I have no idea what it costs now I know things are generally economically tougher with you in the UK than here right now so of course careful consideration needed before you fork out any of your hard earned. I know some excellent Arbs working in the UK who don't use QTRA, and I know some less than great ones over here that do...so honestly I think that how beneficial it will be to you is really down to you and how well balanced your tree assessments are generally. I suppose if your Local Authroity has adopted QTRA as the preferred system for tree risk assessment then it would be an advantage to be able to provide the reporting applying the method. I personally found that when I encountered QTRA first in 2005/2006 it distilled a lot of how I was feeling about tree works and percieved risk from trees.

Not sure about it being a unique selling point...its an assessment tool, or rather assessment system...we find it useful and helpful for our clients, it greatest strength is its auditable by anyone who may wish to try and understand how the conclusion/s of the assessment were reached. It shares exactly the same weaknesses as any other assessment system (the assessor:sneaky2:). Where abouts in the shire are you? I went to highschool in Derby, lived in the north and then in the south...my folks live in Ticknall now, right next door to Calke Park:cool1:

Only the pale likeness in bottles, there are however some most excellent microbreweries here and some make most acceptable IPA's and their versions of ESB but I brew a mean ESB clone thanks to the late David Line. Not wanting to derail but I'm a child of the late 70's who worked behind the bar at the Barley Mow St Albans...ales ain't ales to me.

Magical shots David, brought to mind a slow pint of ESB (yes only the fullers can provide!) and a ploughmans...under cover of course!