Pick-up speed limits

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Ask them if it need a Tacho if towing & if you need an Operators licence if towing.

 

 

(I think) I'm relatively comfortable with that scenario whereby the tacho / no tacho thing is dependent on the nature of load / towed and the distance from base.

 

It's certainly a whole other can of worms which has been bashed to death in a previous thread(s)

 

Standing by to be corrected, but, so far as I understand, if I'm towing my tools for my use I don't need a tacho?

[openspaceman]

(I think) I'm relatively comfortable with that scenario whereby the tacho / no tacho thing is dependent on the nature of load / towed and the distance from base.

 

It's certainly a whole other can of worms which has been bashed to death in a previous thread(s)

 

Standing by to be corrected, but, so far as I understand, if I'm towing my tools for my use I don't need a tacho?

 

Yes you are okay to take tools and materials for your own use within a 100km radius without a tacho even if your gross train weight exceeds 3500kg ( but less than 7500kg). My interpretation would be this includes removing arisings from site but I'm not sure if it came to court.

 

Technically you should still manually record your driving hours and a tacho is necessary if weight exceeds 3500kg and you are delivering goods, in which case you should have a driver cpc.

[Treewolf]

...

My question then was, well, if it's being MoT'd as class 4, but it's not a DPV because it exceeds 2040kg, does that mean it's MoT'd in the wrong class and should be class 7 LCV and thereby leaving the driver / owner open to problems with DVSA/VOSA/Plod for not having a valid MoT cert?

 

...

 

Re the MOT, a goods vehicle with a design gross weight or GVW not exceeding 3000kg is Class 4, but one with a GVW over 3000kg but not exceeding 3500kg is Class 7.

 

A DPV is not a goods vehicle at all in the eyes of the law (since DPV is a distinct category in its own right) and is Class 4 (but remember it must weigh less than 2040kg unladen and not exceed 3500kg laden).

 

The problem is that it is not easy for the tester to determine whether a vehicle is a DPV or a GV in many cases since it depends on the unladen weight, which is not recorded anywhere. VOSA/DVSA at present allow MOT testers to test vehicles which appear to be DPVs as though they were known to be DPVs, ie the tester has an element of freedon of choice.

 

This whole subject of MOT classes for DPVs is very widely misunderstood, and as a result I had a long correspondence with VOSA last year trying to get to the bottom of it. It turned out to be a long correspondence since I was asking questions to which VOSA simply did not know the answers, and they were having to refer to various specilaised "policy units" for answers! My questions specifically related to Defenders, but they are equally applicable for any DPV.

 

The points on which I sought clarification included these, which are relevant to the earlier posts:

 

1) If a vehicle which is by law a Class 4 vehicle is tested improperly for whatever reason as a Class 7 vehicle, then, assuming that the vehicle passes the (improper) test, is it roadworthy and does it have a "valid MOT Test Certificate" as required by law? It is not inconceivable that a vehicle could pass a Class 4 test and yet fail a Class 7, for example, although I don't think that the reverse is true since the pass criteria for the Class 7 are more stringent.

 

2) When a vehicle is presented for test, whose responsibility is it that the correct Class of test is undertaken? It is very evident that most Defender owners don't actually know which MOT class should be applied (they accept what the test centre tells them) and equally no test centres actually know that the law says a LWB Defender is a DPV and therefore should be Class 4, they do what VOSA via the computer tells them. Yet there is no provision on the VOSA system to present the ULW and therefore VOSA cannot say whether a Defender is a DPV or not. This point is more important than it may at face value appear, since many other legalities depend on DPV status (such a speed limits) and yet the UK National registration authority simply has no idea whether most DPVs are legally DPVs or not.

 

3) How does the tester know which Class of test should be applied?

 

4) What weight information about a vehicle is recorded on DVSA/VOSA/other official systems?

 

DVSA's eventual (written) reply included the following:-

 

1) Validity of test certificate.

 

Section 47 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 as amended states; 'A person who uses on a road at any time, or causes or permits to be so used, a motor vehicle to which this section applies, and as respects which no test certificate has been issued within the appropriate period before that time, is guilty of an offence'. Only a court of law can give a legal definition of this. However, where we have identified vehicles which have been issued a certificate of the wrong class in the past we have only advised the owner/user to obtain the correct certificate. In your case the Class 7 test is more onerous than that of Class 4 so it has been tested to a higher standard than required.

 

2) Responsibility to identify the class of Vehicle.

 

The responsibility lies with the tester based on the vehicle presented to him and any supporting evidence that is supplied and referring to test documentation i.e. testguide/manual. The reason it is down to the tester is that vehicles can be converted/modified which will have an effect on the unladen weight.

 

3) How does the tester know what class the vehicle is to be tested to.

 

By using their experience and judgement based on the answer to question 2 above. If a tester believes that the test class that had previously been entered on the DVSA computer system is incorrect, the tester can enter a different class for the test he is about to complete.

 

4) What information about the vehicles weight is recorded on the DVSA database.

 

The only weight that is recorded on the database is the weight used for the brake test calculation if it is required. This could be presented weight, design gross weight or the brake test weight on the vehicle specific information database currently supplied under a 3rd party contract depending on the class of vehicle and equipment used.

 

That I think is as good a reply as you could hope for.

[Stoatally]

1) Only just more onerous and that's debatable - iirc the only difference is tyre load rating and speed rating (tested on class 7 but not 4) and the brakes are tested against gross weight (7) not presented or data brake weight (4). Neither of which should pose any issues, I'd expect most vehicles now to pass the brakes on lock out (certainly class 4 and DPV) and I've not seen an unsuitable tyre fitted for a long time.

 

3) If the tester cannot properly decide what class of vehicle it is then they should decline to test that vehicle until it can be properly established as to what class it is

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Re the MOT, a goods vehicle with a design gross weight or GVW not exceeding 3000kg is Class 4, but one with a GVW over 3000kg but not exceeding 3500kg is Class 7.

 

 

 

A DPV is not a goods vehicle at all in the eyes of the law (since DPV is a distinct category in its own right) and is Class 4 (but remember it must weigh less than 2040kg unladen and not exceed 3500kg laden).

 

 

 

The problem is that it is not easy for the tester to determine whether a vehicle is a DPV or a GV in many cases since it depends on the unladen weight, which is not recorded anywhere. VOSA/DVSA at present allow MOT testers to test vehicles which appear to be DPVs as though they were known to be DPVs, ie the tester has an element of freedon of choice.

 

 

 

This whole subject of MOT classes for DPVs is very widely misunderstood, and as a result I had a long correspondence with VOSA last year trying to get to the bottom of it. It turned out to be a long correspondence since I was asking questions to which VOSA simply did not know the answers, and they were having to refer to various specilaised "policy units" for answers! My questions specifically related to Defenders, but they are equally applicable for any DPV.

 

 

 

The points on which I sought clarification included these, which are relevant to the earlier posts:

 

 

 

1) If a vehicle which is by law a Class 4 vehicle is tested improperly for whatever reason as a Class 7 vehicle, then, assuming that the vehicle passes the (improper) test, is it roadworthy and does it have a "valid MOT Test Certificate" as required by law? It is not inconceivable that a vehicle could pass a Class 4 test and yet fail a Class 7, for example, although I don't think that the reverse is true since the pass criteria for the Class 7 are more stringent.

 

 

 

2) When a vehicle is presented for test, whose responsibility is it that the correct Class of test is undertaken? It is very evident that most Defender owners don't actually know which MOT class should be applied (they accept what the test centre tells them) and equally no test centres actually know that the law says a LWB Defender is a DPV and therefore should be Class 4, they do what VOSA via the computer tells them. Yet there is no provision on the VOSA system to present the ULW and therefore VOSA cannot say whether a Defender is a DPV or not. This point is more important than it may at face value appear, since many other legalities depend on DPV status (such a speed limits) and yet the UK National registration authority simply has no idea whether most DPVs are legally DPVs or not.

 

 

 

3) How does the tester know which Class of test should be applied?

 

 

 

4) What weight information about a vehicle is recorded on DVSA/VOSA/other official systems?

 

 

 

DVSA's eventual (written) reply included the following:-

 

 

 

1) Validity of test certificate.

 

 

 

Section 47 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 as amended states; 'A person who uses on a road at any time, or causes or permits to be so used, a motor vehicle to which this section applies, and as respects which no test certificate has been issued within the appropriate period before that time, is guilty of an offence'. Only a court of law can give a legal definition of this. However, where we have identified vehicles which have been issued a certificate of the wrong class in the past we have only advised the owner/user to obtain the correct certificate. In your case the Class 7 test is more onerous than that of Class 4 so it has been tested to a higher standard than required.

 

 

 

2) Responsibility to identify the class of Vehicle.

 

 

 

The responsibility lies with the tester based on the vehicle presented to him and any supporting evidence that is supplied and referring to test documentation i.e. testguide/manual. The reason it is down to the tester is that vehicles can be converted/modified which will have an effect on the unladen weight.

 

 

 

3) How does the tester know what class the vehicle is to be tested to.

 

 

 

By using their experience and judgement based on the answer to question 2 above. If a tester believes that the test class that had previously been entered on the DVSA computer system is incorrect, the tester can enter a different class for the test he is about to complete.

 

 

 

4) What information about the vehicles weight is recorded on the DVSA database.

 

 

 

The only weight that is recorded on the database is the weight used for the brake test calculation if it is required. This could be presented weight, design gross weight or the brake test weight on the vehicle specific information database currently supplied under a 3rd party contract depending on the class of vehicle and equipment used.

 

 

 

 

That I think is as good a reply as you could hope for.

 

 

That mid EXACTLY What I'm trying to get a definitive answer to! You have it in a (rather large) nutshell!

 

Currently Ford & Toyota main dealers are faffing and prevaricating on my simply question!

 

How is it I can lose sleep over getting the detail right on a £1000 quote and these corporate muppets can't answer a simple question prior to a 30k deal?

 

👍🏻 you're bang on the money with that post and it may affect more people than are currently aware!

[Justme]

(I think) I'm relatively comfortable with that scenario whereby the tacho / no tacho thing is dependent on the nature of load / towed and the distance from base.

 

It's certainly a whole other can of worms which has been bashed to death in a previous thread(s)

 

Standing by to be corrected, but, so far as I understand, if I'm towing my tools for my use I don't need a tacho?

 

Up to 100km from your normal base.

 

My point was more to put the dealer in the spotlight as most just dont know what they are selling & if it is suitable for your needs.

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Up to 100km from your normal base.

 

 

 

My point was more to put the dealer in the spotlight as most just dont know what they are selling & if it is suitable for your needs.

 

 

Understood!

 

I agree actually, they didn't ask / offered no input about tacho but to be fair I didn't raise the subject or ask for guidance.

[Craig.]

Just to muddy the water even more! ask the dealer what the mass in service would be stated on the log book?

I would guess if no other figures where available plod would use this to ascertain the unladen weight, I believe mass in service includes 75kgs for driver and 90% fuel, toolkit, jack, etc.

I my case, `13 plate ranger double cab 3.2, log book states 2228kgs mass in service less 75kg driver, and 72kg (90% of 80 litre tank) gives 2081kgs, I dare say you could argue that the tools and jack and other bits and pieces would come to 41 plus kgs to be in DPV class, but I`ve settled myself to think it comes under commercial speed limits.

If the mass in service was stated as around 2187kgs (assuming 80 litre fuel tank) there would be no argument that it was a DPV.

[Justme]

I my case, `13 plate ranger double cab 3.2, log book states 2228kgs mass in service less 75kg driver, and 72kg (90% of 80 litre tank) gives 2081kgs,

 

Diesel is lighter than water so your 72kg is out.

[Craig.]

Diesel is lighter than water so your 72kg is out.

 

I know but trying to keep it simple to work it out in my head while typing.

Makes no odds to me, as I`ve settled on my vehicle being commercial speed limits.

What grade of diesel are we talking about? summer/winter? call it 850 grams per litre for argument sake. 61.2kgs 90% of 80l

 

2176.2kgs mass in service would put you in DPV class not 2187kgs as posted before.