subcontracting to the same company

[eggsarascal]

Anyone thought about/ looked into hiring on zero hours contracts?

 

No industry needs these!

[Hodge]

Anyone thought about/ looked into hiring on zero hours contracts?

 

 

Been there and done that. The problem is a lot of Subbys don't want the tax deducting at source, they also want the same money per day as they get subbing but the employer then has to pay tax and NI so it cost more than just having a Subby. Holiday pay is still accrued for hours worked and now pensions are being brought into it also.

[Luckyeleven]

Yea I agree, but needs must sometimes, seems to me to be the middle ground between having help when you need and not taking on someone you cant keep busy.

providing of course you can find a subby willing to do it.

[Rupe]

But when you are contract climbing your insurance means nothing, whoever you are climbing for should have EL insurance to cover you. There are a lot of companies who think they don't need EL insurance as they are using contract climbers and there are a lot of climbers who think that they must have their own insurance but it's not the case.

 

 

Your in a bit of a muddle here, a confusion that comes up often.

 

You say the contract climbers insurance means nothing, and you are quite correct, this is where I rant on that its pointless a hired in climber having his own insurance (of course he can have it for his own jobs if needs be) because hes part of the tree companies insurance for that job. So you are correct at that point.

 

But please dont say that the company hes climbing for should have employees liability to cover him as that is a different insurance.

 

The work that he does is covered by the companies public liability insurance, that is why he doesnt need his own. so your right in that part.

 

Employees liability insurance does not cover the liability that the employee/employer has to the public. Do you see what I mean?

 

Your right that the employer should have the EL (and in fact that is the only "legal" requirement) but that covers the employers liability to that employee, and it does not replace or make up for the employees actions to a third party i.e the public.

 

 

So in short EL does not cover the lack (or non requirement of) PL. It is a completely different thing.

 

So, your right, but very wrong at the same time. EL is a totally different thing, employers have it to protect their liabilities to/from their workers..

 

 

Public liability protects your liability to a third party (client or public) and the work that anyone does for you, self employed or not, is covered by that, so the EL does not cover what the self employed person does, thats covered already.

 

 

Of course its all different is a company uses proper sub contractors but of course that is not what we are talking about here, no self employed worker is actually a subbie, contracts or not, they are hired in workers.

 

Its all fine, as long as the worker defines his availability and works for others. the case of three crews working full time but being self employed is wrong and that company deserved to pay all the back tax.

 

 

And as for zero hours contracts, that's only acceptable, (in any trade) where the worker is totally happy with it. There have been cases on here where workers cant make their rent because they dint get any hours for a week or so and yet aren't able to work for anyone else, that is criminal in my humble opinion and as a community we should actively discourage it.

 

 

Side note: Years ago you couldnt get PL without EL because insurance companies said you cant work on your own so you need a groundie so you must have EL, and they were right in this.

 

The only reason they now sell PL on its own is because of the number of idiots that call themselves sub contractors when they are not and ask for PL as a subbie to cover what they do when working for another company. The insurance companies know that this is worthless and has no validity but of the person taking the policy says "subbie" they sell them sub contractors PL insurance.

 

 

 

 

If anyone has any examples of a hired in climber making a mistake and an insurance claim being made, and paid, through his insurance company WITHOUT going through the insurance of the company actually doing the job then I would really love to be proved wrong.

 

Remember subbie climbers, you are not the ones doing the job, even if you are up the tree doing the cutting, its still the company you are working for that is doing the job, even if the boss isnt there. He chose you to do the work and he has (or should have) insurance (PL) to cover his decision to hire you. You do not need your own PL!!!!!! Even if your **** at your job and you kill a bus full of handicapped children, its your employers fault.

 

If you injure yourself because of your employers negligence (he sent you out with a faulty chainbrake on a saw for example and you cut yourself) then you sue him and then he needs his EL. Got it??

[Rupe]

I do my own work and go subbie climbing, buy all my own gear Ppe and pay my own insurance!! How the hell can people say I need to be employed!! Ridiculous

 

When you go subbie climbing, do the companies you work for do an onsite written risk assessment?

 

I'm not saying they should, thats upto them, just asking thats all.

[Adam Bourne]

When you go subbie climbing, do the companies you work for do an onsite written risk assessment?

 

 

 

I'm not saying they should, thats upto them, just asking thats all.

 

 

I climbed for 18 different firms last year, I see 4 different pre job risk assessments and carried out 5 on site risk assessments. 9 through the whole year. Makes no odds to me I do my own risk assessments every second.

[hamdogg]

When you go subbie climbing, do the companies you work for do an onsite written risk assessment?

 

 

 

I'm not saying they should, thats upto them, just asking thats all.

 

 

Yes they do, why ?

[Rupe]

And do you sign into that risk assessment?

[Rupe]

I climbed for 18 different firms last year, I see 4 different pre job risk assessments and carried out 5 on site risk assessments. 9 through the whole year. Makes no odds to me I do my own risk assessments every second.

 

Of course you make your own assessments as you go along, we all do. But ultimatly the company you are working for does the risk assessment for the job, and that means their insurance covers your actions. And if they dont then if anything goes wrong they need to quickly fill one in!

 

As I understand it though, if the boss man is onsite then a verbal assessment is fine, so we all discuss who the jobs going to go, where the signs go, who does what etc. and that discussion goes on all day, thats a risk assessment. Not always is it necessary to actually write anything down.

[Hodge]

Your in a bit of a muddle here, a confusion that comes up often.

 

You say the contract climbers insurance means nothing, and you are quite correct, this is where I rant on that its pointless a hired in climber having his own insurance (of course he can have it for his own jobs if needs be) because hes part of the tree companies insurance for that job. So you are correct at that point.

 

But please dont say that the company hes climbing for should have employees liability to cover him as that is a different insurance.

 

The work that he does is covered by the companies public liability insurance, that is why he doesnt need his own. so your right in that part.

 

Employees liability insurance does not cover the liability that the employee/employer has to the public. Do you see what I mean?

 

Your right that the employer should have the EL (and in fact that is the only "legal" requirement) but that covers the employers liability to that employee, and it does not replace or make up for the employees actions to a third party i.e the public.

 

 

So in short EL does not cover the lack (or non requirement of) PL. It is a completely different thing.

 

So, your right, but very wrong at the same time. EL is a totally different thing, employers have it to protect their liabilities to/from their workers..

 

 

Public liability protects your liability to a third party (client or public) and the work that anyone does for you, self employed or not, is covered by that, so the EL does not cover what the self employed person does, thats covered already.

 

 

Of course its all different is a company uses proper sub contractors but of course that is not what we are talking about here, no self employed worker is actually a subbie, contracts or not, they are hired in workers.

 

Its all fine, as long as the worker defines his availability and works for others. the case of three crews working full time but being self employed is wrong and that company deserved to pay all the back tax.

 

 

And as for zero hours contracts, that's only acceptable, (in any trade) where the worker is totally happy with it. There have been cases on here where workers cant make their rent because they dint get any hours for a week or so and yet aren't able to work for anyone else, that is criminal in my humble opinion and as a community we should actively discourage it.

 

 

Side note: Years ago you couldnt get PL without EL because insurance companies said you cant work on your own so you need a groundie so you must have EL, and they were right in this.

 

The only reason they now sell PL on its own is because of the number of idiots that call themselves sub contractors when they are not and ask for PL as a subbie to cover what they do when working for another company. The insurance companies know that this is worthless and has no validity but of the person taking the policy says "subbie" they sell them sub contractors PL insurance.

 

 

 

 

If anyone has any examples of a hired in climber making a mistake and an insurance claim being made, and paid, through his insurance company WITHOUT going through the insurance of the company actually doing the job then I would really love to be proved wrong.

 

Remember subbie climbers, you are not the ones doing the job, even if you are up the tree doing the cutting, its still the company you are working for that is doing the job, even if the boss isnt there. He chose you to do the work and he has (or should have) insurance (PL) to cover his decision to hire you. You do not need your own PL!!!!!! Even if your **** at your job and you kill a bus full of handicapped children, its your employers fault.

 

If you injure yourself because of your employers negligence (he sent you out with a faulty chainbrake on a saw for example and you cut yourself) then you sue him and then he needs his EL. Got it??

 

 

No I'm not rupe, my EL covers anyone working for me/contract climbing or what ever you want to describe it as if they injur themselves at work on my job does it not. The P/L covers anyone or anything not working for me E.G member of public gets a branch dropped on them?? Or stump grinder chucks a stone through a window.