Stay safe out there

[Mat]

4 way i think? I assume these better than the traditional 3 way krabs ?

 

I would not be too sure.

 

The biggest problem with 'self lockers' is not that they tend to 'roll open' after they have been correctly closed. It is that the don't correctly close in the first place.

 

With a 4 way self locker, in order to 'self lock' it has to move an additional way.

 

3 way self lockers are hopeless at self locking, many won't self lock even from new (until I got the injunction, I used to carefully set rows of self lockers with the gates incorrectly closed in the local arb shop for sport )

 

If the equipment industry struggles to develop suitable 3 way self lockers, I don't see it has a chance with 4 way.

[spudulike]

Well I have now been climbing for 19 years, and today for the very first time I had a Karabiner open on me. I was ascending hand over hand, got myself in a slightly kack handed position when I heard a click...I looked down and there was my karabiner wide open!!

 

I've purposely not named the karabiner as I don't think its relevant, the point is it can happen given the right circumstances...don't get out of the habit of regularly checking your karabiners throughout each and every climb

 

How many mince pies did you have over Christmas:sneaky2:

 

Glad we didn't lose you:thumbdown:

[Safety Steve]

safety steve, perhaps you should read some best practice regarding arboricultural climbing techniques, or better still learn to climb before clogging up threads with inappropriate ill-informed comments, don't mean to sound harsh but i read your post enquiring about the industry's safety professionals of which there are ample all of whom know the difference between locking karabiners, the law & guidance which relates to their production, implementation & use as well as their downfalls. Allot of people find arbtalk a valuable resource to learn & debate industry matters and might not appreciate your comments on such a serious matter.

 

there are autoclosing connectors that are less prone to 'rolling' open such as the isc 3-way hook, petzl ball lock, isc spring lock and the new DMM durolock gates im not sure that electronic gates are the way forward IMO i prefer to train people not to cut their rope/ leg over making them climb on steel lines and wear super thick chainsaw trousers.

 

what our industry does not probably need is desk based H&S paper pushers that are not and have never been experienced climbing arborists. of course that's only my humble non iosh opinion but i guess a few people would agree?

 

You have pm

[skyhuck]

Was close to coming off the end of my rope couple months back . Using my colleagues rope , identical to mine but he had shortened it . I shouted down if I had enough length to make it down , he said yes . Whilst descending I just happened to look over my shoulder for some reason and noticed I had about 12 inches left on the tail . Would have been very very serious outcome !!

 

Presuming you were using drt, how could your groundie possible estimate if you had enough rope??? You would have needed to get the tail sent up and see how near the floor the loop was.

[madbopper]

Was close to coming off the end of my rope couple months back . Using my colleagues rope , identical to mine but he had shortened it . I shouted down if I had enough length to make it down , he said yes . Whilst descending I just happened to look over my shoulder for some reason and noticed I had about 12 inches left on the tail . Would have been very very serious outcome !!

 

Any reason you didn't have a stopper knot in the end.

[Mountain man]

Any reason you didn't have a stopper knot in the end.

 

Go back a bit through the thread, all will become clear.

[born2trot]

Presuming you were using drt, how could your groundie possible estimate if you had enough rope??? You would have needed to get the tail sent up and see how near the floor the loop was.

 

Yes your right the only sure way would have been as you mentioned , was only a guesstimate ..was way short though

[born2trot]

Any reason you didn't have a stopper knot in the end.

 

I don't think it's feasible for any commercial climber to use them out here , maybe a simple matter of working with no groundies a lot , different tree characteristics , amount of trees climbed per day etc none the less stopper knots get jammed in crotches and you can't pull your line through , very simple ...

[daveindales]

Glad your ok. I've noticed that 3 way karabiners are prone to not locking when they should. I always check mine before a climb now. I was very reluctant to move from screw gate to 3 way all those years ago. However, I wouldnt go back now, even if I could.

 

I still climb using both ends of the rope. I know it has its faults, (dropping heavy pieces of wood onto the loop) but you can't fall from running out of rope with that system.

[Loler UK]

I would not be too sure.

 

The biggest problem with 'self lockers' is not that they tend to 'roll open' after they have been correctly closed. It is that the don't correctly close in the first place.

 

With a 4 way self locker, in order to 'self lock' it has to move an additional way.

 

3 way self lockers are hopeless at self locking, many won't self lock even from new (until I got the injunction, I used to carefully set rows of self lockers with the gates incorrectly closed in the local arb shop for sport )

 

If the equipment industry struggles to develop suitable 3 way self lockers, I don't see it has a chance with 4 way.

 

Good points, some 4 way lockers require the same diagonal motion to open them as a 3-way so arguably not a huge difference to make them roll open (i pointed this out unknowingly to the inventor of the 4 way gate and couldnt understand why his mate was laughing so hard, awkward!), apart from the new DMM gates that is, both they and many 2-way & 3way hooks (often referred to as clickers by industrial climbers) require opposing motions to get them to open a much less natural or likely to occur than the rolling action that can open many auto lockers.

 

One of the big things with screw gates that hasn't been mentioned yet is the gravity factor, as experienced rock climbers, mountaineers and rope access technicians will tell you its important to ensure that screw gates are orientated so that gravity is working to tighten the barrel of the 'biner. In arb we are all to often flip flopping around, changing the orientation of the barrel, when climbing industrially this is sometimes avoided by tying directly into the harness, using mallions, captive eye karabiners, 2-way hooks, opposing gates or using auto lockers such as 3-ways, ball-locks etc

 

There was a chap in Gloucestershire that went to court with the HSE after a climber had a fall to argue that he had provided the climber with screw-gates, against IBP, as they were intrinsically safer than 3-ways, it didnt go well for him he was fined a substantial amount but still climbs on screw-gates himself to this day

 

I'd certainly assume that steve was climbing on an auto locking karabiner with 3 or more intendant motions required to open it, and i'd imagine taht they were in good functioning order.

 

I have like you found brand new gates that are prone to getting stuck, i wont mention those but i will say that i've found rock exoticas autolockers by far the best and have never failed one for not auto returning in a thorough examination and i've examined over 4000 auto locking karabiners in the last 6 months alone. But they do machine every single biner, gate & barrel so have much higher tolerances than others that are forged then rumbled etc their barrels are also much thicker than their competitors.

 

Maybe there's room for more innovation, maybe an alarmed electric gate,maybe:001_rolleyes:, but in the mean time im sure that steve's post will help to keep us ever aware of what we're about to rub against our gate be it our arm, hand, a branch etc prevention is better than cure so to speak

Edited January 30, 2015 by Loler UK
missed A word out