College and what the industry really needs

[MWArb]

So viewing all recent input.. would a short summer course with some theory, the tickets and a few days inside a real firm be more productive than a long course? Funding is always an issue but would you have paid more for more info and a short placement included on course over just the tickets?

[Mountain man]

Personally I cannot see any college course preparing people 100% for being a commercial climber.

It prepares you to be trained on the job and reasonably safe in yourself, it would take a few months to a year to be battle hardened.

Same as almost every other trade, bricklayers, electricians or house painters all need to bed in with a firm learning how to actually get the job done, and dare I say unlearn a few things. Sometimes even give a few ideas to the old hands.

It is unrealistic for any firm to expect a college leaver, be it 10 weeker or a yearling to take on a difficult job. Unless he has had plenty of previous experience before going to college.

[dsearle]

Really interesting thread as I am currently doing a Level 3 in Forestry and Arb. Funnily enough I came to this back to front. I went to University and studied Conservation Biology and now I'm doing this. I love it and learning all the time but am I suppose more academic then all the other lads so the theory days I relish as much as the practical. At my college we do two days theory and one day ground work obe day climbing every week. I also work with a local tree surgeon and work every Saturday and Sunday driving a forklift in a yard amd putting farm stuff in the back of pickups. I am 22 and because I have done a course higher then my current obe get no funding help. I do hope however that when I finish and employers see I have a degree, appropriate Arb training and enough work ethic to of spent the last year either at work or college 7 days a week just so I could pursue my chosen career path, it will stand me in good stead.

 

I agree with many of the complaints in this thread and would like to say where I study seems to be actively trying to get us ready for industry. But I frequently here my teachers lamenting the need to get us trained for NPTC and not industry. Hopefully though for those of us who are working in it when not at college we can ses how it converges and keep learning.

 

Great thread

[kevinjohnsonmbe]

Really interesting thread as I am currently doing a Level 3 in Forestry and Arb. Funnily enough I came to this back to front. I went to University and studied Conservation Biology and now I'm doing this. I love it and learning all the time but am I suppose more academic then all the other lads so the theory days I relish as much as the practical. At my college we do two days theory and one day ground work obe day climbing every week. I also work with a local tree surgeon and work every Saturday and Sunday driving a forklift in a yard amd putting farm stuff in the back of pickups. I am 22 and because I have done a course higher then my current obe get no funding help. I do hope however that when I finish and employers see I have a degree, appropriate Arb training and enough work ethic to of spent the last year either at work or college 7 days a week just so I could pursue my chosen career path, it will stand me in good stead.

 

I agree with many of the complaints in this thread and would like to say where I study seems to be actively trying to get us ready for industry. But I frequently here my teachers lamenting the need to get us trained for NPTC and not industry. Hopefully though for those of us who are working in it when not at college we can ses how it converges and keep learning.

 

Great thread

 

 

Good post that fella!

 

I think I mentioned it earlier in the thread, the way I see it, there are 3 constituent parts to the (perceived) problem - the training centre (college), the training requirement (NPTC schedules) and the perceived industry standard/requirement. It's the shortfall or mismatch between those constituent parts that Martyn is seeking to identify and address if possible.

 

NPTC schedules have been designed and ratified by the 'great & the good' from within the industry! They provide a baseline and are a generic requirement. If they are seen as the problem (not a view I share) then it's possible to change them to suit.

 

When I said 3 constituent parts of the problem, I'm now thinking 4 or 5 if you include trainee AND potential employer character/attitude/aptitude.

 

Sounds like you're a grafter, good on you!

[MWArb]

O.K guys lets take this a step further...

 

Designing a short course for the Industry rather than NPTC... obviously the basic four tickets will need to be included as that's the only legal way of getting them out working in the industry however...

 

what else would you add??

 

thinking along the lines of the theory.. CODIT, biomechanics, pruning/thinning/reducing, fungi..

 

also thinking of doing a weeks real work placement with local firm, BUT this will have to include the chance to fell, climb, thin etc rather than just using them as brash rats..

 

how long?.. NPTC takes a week per ticket (for those that can) however this course could run for say 8 weeks including the work placement etc..

 

numbers.. this could in theory run in the summer for say 4 - 8 people perhaps (8 using 2 instructors to make sure ratios are legal and instruction isn't diluted by numbers)

 

help me out here people what do you want?

[Shane]

An admirable aim - to train for what industry needs, good luck - but...

 

Training institutions are businesses. They will try to get as many people in as they can.

Do they really care if there is a demand for what they are producing?

 

Some years ago I taught IT at a local technical college. It was at the time when loads of blue-chip companies were merging and IT departments were closing down all over the place. The college knew this was happening but they were getting paid by Govt grants and by foreign students so they kept on pushing them through the machine - knowing there would be no chance of a job for the vast majority of them.

 

I get phone calls from 'keen, self motivated, hard working' newly qualified youngsters every week. It appears that the numbers being produced is far too high.

 

Yes - when they are trained it must be in the right way, but if most employers feel experience is more important, maybe we, as employers, should take on school leavers and send them off to do their tickets when WE think it would be appropriate.

 

I am taking on a school leaver in July and am planning to do exactly that. A kind of unofficial apprenticeship if you like.

 

Happy to let you know how he gets on.

 

PS I've not read the entire thread so please forgive me if this has already been suggested.

[MWArb]

Thx Shane, all input welcome.. this is now the focus of this thread.. your right in that there are loads out there with the qualifications but all I hear is they're not good enough.. so... If we could produce a course that would make them better prepared for the industry then surely they would get the work no matter how many others there are.. I totally see your point as I was one of a generation of compuer programmers but I feel there is still the need for well trained staff in all industries.

[larrand1892]

Hello there interesting reading! I am indeed one of those looking at benefiting from such training. Im 23 with a Business Degree; gone up the route of office work in property sales but with roots in the outdoors and being hands-on I'm currently looking at options to enter the industry and do something I truly enjoy. Either with local college Riseholme/Bishop Burton or existing firm; the trouble being I don't qualify as an Apprentice due to my qualifications.

Will keep an eye in here!

[benedmonds]

I did a 12 week at Plumpton, back in 2000. Merrist wood used to do the same and there was always a waiting list. I have no idea if they still do them but to me they were great. Most people doing it like me had done a bit of tree work and wanted to progress.

 

You got your basic tickets which enabled you to climb and even back pack sprayer. Tree law was covered, tree ID, pruning, even street works and we were shown stump grinders and chippers.. It was full time 5 days a week, fairly intensive as I recall.

 

As an employer I would be happy with this as some one coming from one of these would have their tickets. They are legal onsite and I can concentrate on training them to do the job. It's alot less risky for me as spending on training is expensive to an employer as you pay the employee and the training costs..

 

As an employee you haven't had to waste a whole year or even two being a student. I don't know if it's the same everywhere but I know the students at Derby only go in for two or three days a week and have long holidays.

 

I have two climbers working for me who are now after two years finally becoming economic and I have been pushing them up trees at every opportunity. I have had to pay for their training and the time for them to learn the job. Some one who has spent two years at college climbing infrequently in a non commercial environment is still unlikely to be any good.

 

I think one of the issues is funding as I believe it is biased to the younger 16-18 students, when arb is best suited for grown ups.. IMO

[Blandboy]

maybe we, as employers, should take on school leavers

Shane, why in particular have you highlighted school leavers? Most recent school leavers on my current Level 3 Arb course have no grasp of working/grafting for a living and at least 2 of them don't even want to do arb as a job after they finish their government imposed term of education. Wouldn't someone with some previous work experience be a better bet?