Two ropes for SRWP?

[Old Mill Tree Care]

Sounds like you just cut down the tallest poplar In england Al. How do you feel about that ?

 

 

Pretty good actually because the tree is typical, full of decay pockets and it has houses close by.

It genuinely was that tall cos I measured it and I was surprised!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Arbtalk mobile app.

[dgcunningham]

I'm certainly not speaking from experience here as I have never climbed on SRT for tree work- always previously climbed DRT but wanted to ask a question.

 

Does SRT make it more feasible to work alongside a parallel safety line, say with an ASAP on a sling offset from your position? Much like Rope Access guys do? Couldn't you, in effect, once you have set your throw line just pull through 2 ropes instead of 1 and separately anchor them to the base of the tree?

 

EN 363 for both Work Positioning and Rope Access have a requirement for separate working lines and safety lines. Couldn't this be a way of ensuring compliance without it being too obstructive to the work? Anyone had any experience of this?

[kevin bingham]

I'm certainly not speaking from experience here as I have never climbed on SRT for tree work- always previously climbed DRT but wanted to ask a question.

 

Does SRT make it more feasible to work alongside a parallel safety line, say with an ASAP on a sling offset from your position? Much like Rope Access guys do? Couldn't you, in effect, once you have set your throw line just pull through 2 ropes instead of 1 and separately anchor them to the base of the tree?

 

EN 363 for both Work Positioning and Rope Access have a requirement for separate working lines and safety lines. Couldn't this be a way of ensuring compliance without it being too obstructive to the work? Anyone had any experience of this?

 

Yes, I approach every tree with this in mind. Although I have found that backup devices just get in the way. It is better to use two working devices so that both ropes can be used to work the tree. This makes the second rope not just a burden but absolutely functional and helpful. I recently competed in or chapter competition staying tied in to two different lines for the areal rescue, the work climb, and the master's challenge and won. It did not slow me down but helped me maintain great work angles as well as having an extra margin of safety at all times.

[Marc]

I'm certainly not speaking from experience here as I have never climbed on SRT for tree work- always previously climbed DRT but wanted to ask a question.

 

Does SRT make it more feasible to work alongside a parallel safety line, say with an ASAP on a sling offset from your position? Much like Rope Access guys do? Couldn't you, in effect, once you have set your throw line just pull through 2 ropes instead of 1 and separately anchor them to the base of the tree?

 

EN 363 for both Work Positioning and Rope Access have a requirement for separate working lines and safety lines. Couldn't this be a way of ensuring compliance without it being too obstructive to the work? Anyone had any experience of this?

 

Don't industrial work access operative use fall a arrest harness? We do not, our harness are not suited to taking a fall. Also if 2 ropes are pulled through same fork/anchor point you effectively still only have one anchor point if this fails 2 or 1 rope it will not matter.

 

The benefit for me of 2 ropes would be improved positioning, after all in tree work positioning is everything.

[kevin bingham]

Don't industrial work access operative use fall a arrest harness? We do not, our harness are not suited to taking a fall. Also if 2 ropes are pulled through same fork/anchor point you effectively still only have one anchor point if this fails 2 or 1 rope it will not matter.

 

The benefit for me of 2 ropes would be improved positioning, after all in tree work positioning is everything.

 

I do normally set both lines through one crotch that I am 100% sure about. I often end up redirecting one of my lines through a higher crotch that I am 90% sure about. This is true for all my redirects as I go through the tree.

 

As for taking a fall, we don't wear full body harnesses bur we could easily if you chose to. I rock climbed for many years and took all kinds of long falls in a harness much smaller and less comfortable than my current harness. I would wear my tree harness in a fall any day although I don't plan on it!

[dgcunningham]

Don't industrial work access operative use fall a arrest harness? We do not, our harness are not suited to taking a fall. Also if 2 ropes are pulled through same fork/anchor point you effectively still only have one anchor point if this fails 2 or 1 rope it will not matter.

 

The benefit for me of 2 ropes would be improved positioning, after all in tree work positioning is everything.

 

Hi Mark, really good points and completely understand what you mean by 'effectively' only having 1 anchor. But what I would suggest is that 'technically' you have two separate anchors with having two separate ropes tied off at the base. Just a point of discussion really but I was thinking of the advantage this might offer in the true sense of a safety line- that being if you primary line was to 'fail' you would have a second line in place.

 

I've been office based for a year and thinking about going back on the tools- guess I'm a bit nervous about the whole thing.

 

[Loler UK]

Don't industrial work access operative use fall a arrest harness? We do not, our harness are not suited to taking a fall. Also if 2 ropes are pulled through same fork/anchor point you effectively still only have one anchor point if this fails 2 or 1 rope it will not matter.

 

The benefit for me of 2 ropes would be improved positioning, after all in tree work positioning is everything.

 

depending on the application industrial climbers do, but many of our harnesses are also fall arrest (eg tree motion) in fact our harnesses generally cause less injury in a FA situation.

 

climbers with a 2nd back up line may choose to use a dorsal attachment point for their buddy, asap, catch, rocker, whatever to keep their pelvic/ chest mounted descender/ ascenders from becoming tangled. The asap obv' has the advantage that it follows you up AND down freeing up your second hand, the asap is also designed to be used on inclines and will still grab even if you clutch hold of it in a fall unlike other devices

 

climbing with a passive backup such as an asap is perfectly achievable using either a dorsal or a pelvic attachment so long as (in the case of dorsal) an asap lanyard is added. It can prove inconvenient, it is easy to forget that you cant spin around in the same ways we might be able to as the lanyard/ lines can get twisted, it is also necessary to thread the backup line when you drop through crotches where as you can get away not doing so on most normal arb systems.

 

Like kevin i actually find it easier to use 2 positioning devices on lines as opposed to a backup device even if they are anchored close together. When they are positioned apart it gives great stability but on some trees with lots of branches you can spend allot of time re-routing the line but in some trees its a real boon when you dial in! On a recent rigging job i did for the BBC we used 3 srt lines at once to triangulate our position on a tentsile hammok.

 

We had to have major negotiations to convince the beeb H&S man to allow a presenter to climb on a doubled rope without a backup line, we eliminated the risk of panic descent by having intermittent marlin spikes in the tail end of the line (like TCI train) and it was a strait up & strait down with no cutting/ sharps etc. If i started loosing the fight i would have used the ISC alf which can turn a double roped system into 2 points of attachment! if you cut one leg of your line the alf (previously;y functioning as an anchor pulley) grabs hold of the rope, it doesn't matter which one you cut/ release it grabs in both directions in the presence of significant inertia.

 

all that isn't commercial tree work though so a bit of a tangent and maybe not a practical option in the work place

 

a 2nd line is achievable but is more practical in some trees and not in others but is certainly a very valuable practice to be well versed & practiced in so that you can deploy it when it is adventitious/ required

 

a guy had a go with our asap at the arb show after enthusiastically telling us he was going to invent a passive fall arrest device that follows you up AND down, patent it & become rich(he looked pretty disappointing when i picked up an asap and said you" mean like this") once he'd got over the disappointment he found it quite workable

[Marc]

Interesting stud Mike and Kevin.

 

dgcunnigham I was just making discussion and thought, 2 single lines through a reliable fork is effectively giving you two good attachement points, now I am just thinking out loud and again raising points to discuss in what situation will a life line fail making 2 independent life lines a safety gain?

 

I can understand completely the 2'lines giving better positioning possibilities and there in making safer work positioning.

It's just the safety gain in terms of single line failure (I even mean a single line doubled as in the use of just one rope) what scenarios are we talking about?

 

When it come to using 2 line through same fork then base or top tied your rope will be following the same route so I do not see any gain here, what I imagine in this scenario is you will redirect one line statically by tie off instead of running through fork or biner, this is increasing saftey by increasing number of tie offs and creating triangulation, which for me is the advantage 2 lines give.

 

In terms of safety I just feel a dorsal attachment with ASAP would be needed if you want to go down that route. As any failure to a line that could be caused by cutting implement could hit the bridge or both lines being in such close proximity.

 

In my opinion a single line is a safe means of attachment with good disciplined work practice.

[kevin bingham]

Interesting stud Mike and Kevin.

 

dgcunnigham I was just making discussion and thought, 2 single lines through a reliable fork is effectively giving you two good attachement points, now I am just thinking out loud and again raising points to discuss in what situation will a life line fail making 2 independent life lines a safety gain?

 

I can understand completely the 2'lines giving better positioning possibilities and there in making safer work positioning.

It's just the safety gain in terms of single line failure (I even mean a single line doubled as in the use of just one rope) what scenarios are we talking about?

 

When it come to using 2 line through same fork then base or top tied your rope will be following the same route so I do not see any gain here, what I imagine in this scenario is you will redirect one line statically by tie off instead of running through fork or biner, this is increasing saftey by increasing number of tie offs and creating triangulation, which for me is the advantage 2 lines give.

 

In terms of safety I just feel a dorsal attachment with ASAP would be needed if you want to go down that route. As any failure to a line that could be caused by cutting implement could hit the bridge or both lines being in such close proximity.

 

In my opinion a single line is a safe means of attachment with good disciplined work practice.

 

Yes for sure! I have always been very poorly disciplined when it comes to lanyard use though. Never gotten me into trouble but I have developed poor habits. I would prefer just to get cutting. I usually set my base ties so they are apart from one another. If my lines are parallel, I will put a little slack in one before cutting. I think it much harder to cut a slack line than a taught one.

My conclusion has been it is easier to be disciplined with two lines than just one line. If I were to race myself with one line and a lanyard and making sure I used it for every cut, climbing with two lines is way way faster. I used to just go to town and use my lanyard just for when needed for work positioning. That is poor practice but very fast, especially dangerous when working with a base tie.

 

This has been my way of becoming a more disciplined safer climber

[Fredward]

Kevin, do you have any videos of you working with two SRT systems in either competition or work environment?