Chainsaw update training to become mandatory for all operatives from Oct 2013

[Rich2484]

Now now children......

[PhilBeech]

I go back to my earlier point. It's all about the money. There simply isn't the money in this industry to dramatically improve health and safety.

 

Commercial pressure, peanuts and monkeys as was said earlier.

 

What annoys me is the fact that the big boys like UPM, Fountains, Scottish Woodlands will embrace this and push it. While at the same time insisting their subbies are highly qualified and pay them a pittance.

 

They'll win more work when it becomes mandatory and is requested at tender stage.

[Andy Collins]

I think the whole certification system needs a reboot. From the beginning, start again. Back in the early eighties when I did my first courses, instructors didn't just run through a tick box of fells and dish out tickets "like sweeties". They looked for the aptitude of the student. Out of 6 on my course, 4 failed that course, I recall one re-took it and passed, the other three dropped away, left the trade and rightly so. Roll forward to the mid 90s, I took my tickets again, due to period of non use I wanted to ensure I was up to scratch. 6 on the course, 6 passes. Sounds good, well not really. One lad couldn't put the chain on the right way around, despite hours of being shown, and repeat on his general saw use. He got his tickets, regardless of his abilities, in old lingo, he was as thick as two short planks. But the bums on seats training courses have to allow those with learning difficulties the same opportunities as the more able, and the fear of being accused of discrimination is greater than allowing a fail. I felt this was wrong, it lowered the standard to base level, it made IMO the tickets a joke. Judging on some of the latest new bods that I've seen come into the industry, this rubber stamped certification is still alive and well. The industry does not suffer a shortage of certificated operators, it suffers a shortage of technically able operators, time-served with experience to match.

I too have had the "invite" to join this new group, a group that actually will not allow the working man to be vocal. I shall not be joining.

[PhilBeech]

I think the whole certification system needs a reboot. From the beginning, start again. Back in the early eighties when I did my first courses, instructors didn't just run through a tick box of fells and dish out tickets "like sweeties". They looked for the aptitude of the student. Out of 6 on my course, 4 failed that course, I recall one re-took it and passed, the other three dropped away, left the trade and rightly so. Roll forward to the mid 90s, I took my tickets again, due to period of non use I wanted to ensure I was up to scratch. 6 on the course, 6 passes. Sounds good, well not really. One lad couldn't put the chain on the right way around, despite hours of being shown, and repeat on his general saw use. He got his tickets, regardless of his abilities, in old lingo, he was as thick as two short planks. But the bums on seats training courses have to allow those with learning difficulties the same opportunities as the more able, and the fear of being accused of discrimination is greater than allowing a fail. I felt this was wrong, it lowered the standard to base level, it made IMO the tickets a joke. Judging on some of the latest new bods that I've seen come into the industry, this rubber stamped certification is still alive and well. The industry does not suffer a shortage of certificated operators, it suffers a shortage of technically able operators, time-served with experience to match.

I too have had the "invite" to join this new group, a group that actually will not allow the working man to be vocal. I shall not be joining.

 

Very true. We spent week learning the tools. I believe now you can get the basics in a few hours with an assessment.

 

I want to see high quality apprenticeships.

[easy-lift guy]

Seems to me that H&S is calling the shots for more mandatory training or else. I agree with Andy that an entire reboot of the training and testing procedure take place. Cut away the fat, waste, rubber stamping of canadiates for the sake of maintain a high passing rate.

My opinion about government in general ties into the overall scheme of things.

I believe most folks see or have seem the results of more government intervention and regulation and the associated increased cost of all levels of production. This in turn causes everything else to increase as well. A vicious circle. My opinion about the current government in power is one more example of more of everything cost everyone dearly.

I do not believe there would be a free for all under any circumstances in this industry if the repetition and fat was cut out and replaced with meaningful and functional means of testing and evaluating the end user. Sometimes if little Billy's dad exercised some common sence,responsibility trips to the ER or coming home in a box could be prevented.

easy-lift guy

[TGB]

...

So its not a "layer of government control" its industry self regulation in an effort to stop people getting maimed and killed. There is good history of that being successful in the UK...

 

I reckon it's both - government control and an attempt at self-regulation. With the HSE funds being continually cut from the top, the HSE are having to re-coupe revenue from wherever they can. Who's to say they won't be dictating fees and taking their cut or % thereof every five years.

 

As to the last quoted sentence; I would agree. But this won't be the case in the future. Have a gander through this article, http://www.hazards.org/votetodie/ishsefinished.htm#top . The UK is sliding down a steep H+S slope. And big business in league with government, are pushing worker-health ever nearer to the edge of an abyss.

Edited May 3, 2013 by TGB

[Craobh]

Seems to me that H&S is calling the shots for more mandatory training or else. I agree with Andy that an entire reboot of the training and testing procedure take place. Cut away the fat, waste, rubber stamping of canadiates for the sake of maintain a high passing rate.

My opinion about government in general ties into the overall scheme of things.

I believe most folks see or have seem the results of more government intervention and regulation and the associated increased cost of all levels of production. This in turn causes everything else to increase as well. A vicious circle. My opinion about the current government in power is one more example of more of everything cost everyone dearly.

I do not believe there would be a free for all under any circumstances in this industry if the repetition and fat was cut out and replaced with meaningful and functional means of testing and evaluating the end user. Sometimes if little Billy's dad exercised some common sence,responsibility trips to the ER or coming home in a box could be prevented.

easy-lift guy

 

 

Buddy I really get where your coming from but the UK will never work like the states it set up way differently. I do think things over here are nuts and I was born here lol........but here does have pressures put on it and not alwa\ys by folks in the UK pulling the strings.

 

 

The industry here is way smaller it is regulated more but that in essence is due to geo size and really one law covering the lot (yes Scotland has it's own law but in essence again it the same) The states doesn't have that it has a muddle of Federal, State and County law ......hell even local town Law and that will never change.

 

 

Things ie politics etc stateside work way differently as eg Federal could pass something but if a state don't wanna do it then they won't lol it as simple as that. Self reg does work better stateside as it will pertain to the area where it is at because next state over the law may be different ......hell the next town over it could be different.

 

 

 

Guys both my family and my wife's went to war over the big Govt trying to impose things lol.......we lost lol......but individual identity and individual state rights are things that folks here might not understand (no disrespect) and big govt is a hot potato just like some things here.

 

 

 

Don't argue guys things are so different......I can and do say things that don't apply here but I mean no disrespect and honestly I didn't realize how stateside I think on arb/logging things but I hope that maybe something I say might be useful

[easy-lift guy]

Fair enough.

easy-lift guy

[Eddy_t]

Wonder if this will have anything to do with the NPTC's new power of revoking certificates?

 

 

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[Spruce Pirate]

I go back to my earlier point. It's all about the money. There simply isn't the money in this industry to dramatically improve health and safety.

 

Commercial pressure, peanuts and monkeys as was said earlier.

 

What annoys me is the fact that the big boys like UPM, Fountains, Scottish Woodlands will embrace this and push it. While at the same time insisting their subbies are highly qualified and pay them a pittance.

 

They'll win more work when it becomes mandatory and is requested at tender stage.

 

I was thinking about this today. It think the likes of FC, UPM, Fountain, Councils, Scottish Woodlands, NPA's, etc, etc should all back this up with a promise of hard cash.

 

What I have in mind is if their tendering processes insist on seing refresher certs which have to be supplied with the tender as proof then they should all garuantee a minimum wage for saw operators. A minimum mind, nothing to stop them paying more . So, for example, minimum price for a CS30/31 operator should be, lets say £15 / hour; CS32 - £17.50 / hour; CS 34/35 £20 / hour, climbers... riggers ..... you get the idea. There's nothing to stop you tendering a price of £25 / hour for a CS30/31 if that's what you feel you need to put on the job, but at least we would have a minimum in place. Realistically, if we know these prices most of us would bid at the minimum to try and win the work, but at least then its up to us to sell ourselves on our merits, rather than cut our throats on costs.

 

I will now return from the land of fantasy with a bump, but it was a nice visit.