Paperwork awareness!

[3dogs]

Whats Loler ??

 

didn't the kinks sing about her/him?1111:scared1:

[Arbocop]

Bit unfair comments there guys.

 

We have asked if loler is a legal requirement, we have had hundreds of opinions and no factual replies

 

We had a full thread on waste licenses, again hundreds of opinions and no definate answers.

 

If things are this confusing for two of the "requirements" then it's a little unfair to say people should research or go around with their heads in the sand.

 

Some of us want to know answers but no-one can come up with any. When and if they do, there's always another no brainer peice of legislation to supposedly adhere to..... or is there.

 

1. Is Loler a legal requirement Y/N

 

2. If a person knows chapter 8 like the back of his hand, is he still legally required to go on a course and get a ticket

 

3. Are we legally bound to create a written maintainence record ( maintainance of some equipment can be proved through receipts of parts ect, writing down you have done it doesn't mean it has been done)

 

It is possible to know your responsibilities to the public and employee's without bullshite forms, form filling does not and never will prevent accidents, all they do is cover your @rse should anything go wrong, which in my veiw is you looking after yourself not your employee.

 

I will look after my employee by sending him on all the courses he requires for him to know all these points for himself. I am at this moment filling in a prospectus form for him to start college in sept, to me that means more than filling in stupid and meaning less vibration records and equipment use records which are a product of the claim culture and the covering of @rses culture.

 

What we should have is this person should have been looking where he is going instead of falling off curbs forms.

 

There! it's out

 

wow dean a little forceful

 

yes loler is a legal requirment you must conform with

 

yes you need chapter 8/highway working award

 

no it does not have to be written but a system to prove it must exist

 

vibration is a real issue causing long term problems, creative and targeted managment of the issue does minimise 'paperwork' but there wil always be the need for soem proof.

 

employees taking responcibilities acts/ommisions is a duty under the HSAWA lots of people forget that, but the culture of self care does need a managment input

 

there does that answer your question, and well done for encoraging your staff to take responcibility for there duties, your turn

 

kev

[Dean Lofthouse]

Does anyone have a list of all the paperwork that your average business owner (tree work ) has a legal obligation to fill in on a weekly basis or if it's better a monthly basis.

 

The majority come on Arbtalk to find out things such as this, I think it may come as a shock to most. Matt (highland forestry) pointed out quite a few yesterday

[Highland Forestry]

Dean - some of the items in your list will be covered under PUWER as well as LOLER.

 

IMO I think the time is coming that we will all have to hold our hands up and just get a full inspection of kit every 6 months and have one with it - the LOLER regs and the costs involved in keeping compliant are a total con in my personal opinion, and like most legislation they have created a micro-industry in the form of LOLER inspectors and the like.

 

I have saved that HSE Infoline phone number in my mobile, and will deffinatley be using it as it was a completley painless excersise finding out the facts from the people that really know about it.

 

Where it says in the legislation that kit must be checked by a 'competent person' - the only way to prove you have used a competent person is to have somebody qualified to do it, so we cant check each others kit for example, and it must be somebody independent also so that only leaves paying somebody to do it.

 

I would like to know why none of the LOLER inspectors on this forum have been unable to provide facts about the regulations and the law - if the LOLER inspectors don't know what the craic is then it dosen't bide well for the rest of us.

 

On another note regarding paperwork that needs filled out daily/weekly/monthly - this will vary slightly from job to job depending on what you're doing and will vary for individual companies, the only sure fire way to cover yourself is to get some kind of health and safety bod in to give you advice and to help you put procedures into place.

 

I don't have a choice about my compliance as 95% of work I do is for larger commercial companies, most of which are ISO:9001 and the likes and all paperwork must be in check or either no more work or no payment!!

I am forced to be completley transparent and dare I say it whiter than white.. it's just the times we live in, and for me, if I did not do it all I would have no work so I shut up and put up.

 

Health and Safety records, of all different kinds, can in a strange way give you a little satisfaction that you know you are catering for all your responsibilities and I believe that it sets a higher professional plane for your business.

[Mesterh]

Matt

 

You have in the last post answered what has been to'ing and fro'ing on the forum for the last twelve months.

 

Well done that man and in a simplistic way.

 

Now what about enforcement of this law

 

My Loler bill will be astronomical;

 

eg;

 

Landrover Tipper body

Landrover winch and wire

Tirfor winch and wire x 2

30 slings strops

d shackles x 8

pulley blocks x4

car jack x1

trolley jack x1

tow rope x 2

tractor 3 point

tractor loader

mewp

climbing gear

rigging gear

stump puller x 1

forklift attachment

 

and thats off the top of my head

 

 

Would be cheaper and easier to do the course yourself, thats what I am now thinking of doing.

[Dean Lofthouse]

It seems to me that everything I do or am involved in seems to be riddled with legislation or you must do this you must do that.

 

I'm a shoot captain, a sport / hobby.

 

Before each shoot I must give a scripted verbal brief, despite each gun knowing the script word for word, I carry OS co-ordinates of different locations on the 3500 acre estate in case I need to call in an emergency, I must carry a medical kit, radios and also am ultimatey responsible for peoples safety and my decisions could count in a law suite.

 

It turns from a passtime/ enjoyable sport into a H&S legeslative pain in the ass.

 

I did green laning, ended up giving up because of the hassle with ramblers and legal battles to close lanes

 

Bought a shop to setup a tool retail business and ended up battling with planning to get it passed when planning for A1 retail ran out.

 

I buy a woodland, to then be told I had better keep records of how and when I pruned my trees. I must get PL insurance and put signs up all over, put gates in just, to cover my butt. I then get a council letter trying to claim a footpath through my wood and end up with a legal battle.

 

I then setup an honest business instead of screwing the system and raping the DHSS. I struggle to get a customer data base and end up with a successful business that has plenty of work in the books through recommendation and good working practice.

 

I then am told I need a waste tranfer license, I must do loler and legaly I'm all of a sudden treading on thin ice because there is this and that legislation form to fill in etc etc.

 

I have just taken on a 16 year old and booked him in at Askern Bryan. I have took out EL last year and am wanting to get this lad eventually trained up to degree level and eventually hand the business over to him to give him a decent future where he would definately end up in a dead end job.

 

I know I am, by setting this lad on, making it harder for myself to run the business, more paperwork and records.

 

But you can understand my bitterness with "needless" legeslative claptrap, yes there are some to protect and to some point I agree with loler otherwise shite kit will be handed out to some employee by some greedy boss.

 

But they really do make you think is it really worth all this crap

Edited February 17, 2009 by Dean Lofthouse

[jamesw]

cheers for the unpro comment!!!

 

At present i have no paperwork to worry about unless that means my job sheet and risk assessment. My manager deals with paperwork i just climb, cut and chip! no problemos:001_cool: my loller gos as far as is my kit safe to work with today? yes then climb no then get a new bit of kit.

 

however when i was self employed i stayed on top of all my paperwork (which including loller)which was easy, not rocket science as well as doing my own books! I think that its all relevant to what your doing! just thought you needed another option two is a bit poo!!!

[jamesw]

highland should i start a thread!

do you fill out paper work to 1) protect your employees. 2)to cover your own ass!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but adding 3) protecting my employees, my business and my ass!

that would make sense that was my original point.

[sylvestris stew]

highland should i start a thread!

do you fill out paper work to 1) protect your employees. 2)to cover your own ass!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but adding 3) protecting my employees, my business and my ass!

that would make sense that was my original point.

 

obviously answer 2

 

No offense Matt it's just the way it is.

H&S is being run by local government types , for local government types.

We all have a duty of care to ensure adequate H&S, this is not new , this has been the case since the start of civilisation, what is new is the paper BS that goes with it.

 

REMEMBER , GARDEN IS AN ANAGRAM OF DANGER

 

The only good thing about this unnessessary paper work is that it keeps pulp prices up:scared1:

 

How many times do you hear people say they complete R.A's the night before a job! One person was shocked recently when someone changed the R.A half way through the day as the conditions changed , he'd never seen this before.

 

R.A's etc. are fine if they are used correctly , not when they are just there to tick boxes, you might as well print them on Andrex:blushing:

 

Good job I've not had a drink tonight or I would have got on my soapbox and had a rant about H&S.

[skyhuck]

How would people feel if this was a thread for house holders arguing about why they should bother paying "extra" for a trained, insured, tree surgeon, when it so much cheaper too use the guy who knocks on the door???

 

Just like all the other "paper work", training and insurance is all a load of crap to make the government money.