a nice cut for hung trees

[dadio]

How are you twisting it to that Daniel? The issue in my mind has only even been with you parading this technique about and toutiing it as 'safe'

 

Yes I AM... parading it around touting it as safe... absolutely safe, in that it stands alone as a safe cut, having used it over 1000 times... certainly you could bring the cut down to chest level if it would make you feel better...

 

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY ITS RELATIVELY SAFE... that is safer than many other options... for example, climbing and rigging the top, falling the supporting tree, perhaps even fooling around with a winch & making a notch on the top side...

 

simply calling the cut unpredictable or unsafe does not make it so... where did you get that idea?... what evidence can use to support that argument, logic, empirical evidence, anything????? I simply have not heard anyone provide a reasonable argument against the use of this cut in some 20 pages of heated discussion... of course when the facts don't support your case, you can always fall back on name calling, which seems to be the case here..

[dadio]

Probably not but even if your cut would somehow miraculously make it in the the book! I still would not use it!

 

There is no way in hell you was in control of that situation, foolish and down right stupid calling it any thing but unsafe....

 

Sorry Daniel, I admire you for a small portion of your work but this is defiantly not one of them.

 

This is a perfect example... everyone is entitled to their opinion and of course should do only what they feel comfortable and judge as safe in the field, so to say I would not use the cut is one thing, but to call it unsafe is another.. what makes it unsafe????? You can say I was not in control, but I can show video of a dozen or more trees coming down in the exact same manner every time...

[dadio]

and how many have died from not following the rule book ?

 

an example of flawed logic... people have died from not following the rule book, therefore we should never use any technique outside the rule book.. That would simply stall the development of any new techniques in this biz..

[dadio]

I have no wish to re-ignite the earlier nature of this thread, but I'm interested in approaches.

 

Hypothetically, if you were going to tackle a tree like the one in the original film without a winch, and assuming the top was securely wedged in a fork so no chance of it rolling out, I appreciate the difficulty in assessing tension/compression in the first cut but once the first cut is made (so it's free at the base) is there any reason not use a cut that looks like a felling cut in reverse (i.e notch the top, then undercut), taking sections of approx. 4ft long, working at waist height?

 

Alec

 

The tension and compression can also be hard to read once the tree starts to get straight... Your notching technique is a difficult cut to make on big wood, you'd have to make it lower on the tree, therefore more cuts to get the tree to drop as far as needed, also there is likely to be a lot of fooling around with the back cut, and especially on a big cut, a tendency to misjudge its height relative to the notch which could cause major problems, you could trap the saw, or keep the hinge from folding... and there is also the extreme likelihood of the bar getting pinched once the tree gets straight enough.. once the bar gets pinched there is going to be a tendency to have to put yourself closer to the falling tree to pull the saw out etc...

I'd like to see some video of ANYONE making a top notch on a big leaner like that ash... or rolling one that big out with a winch... now that would be something, and we could really compare the three methods... I put out videos of quick and effective solutions to real world scenarios, from the field.. ALL i hear back is speculation and name calling... have you nothing else to offer?

[Pete Mctree]

Daniel, it's not a good cut. The separation is too dynamic as opposed to a top& bottom cut correctly executed.

 

I'm not going to comment further, apart from noting my dislike of your arguing methods. Beating down others who disagree is not discourse & your aggression makes it quite difficult to reply to some of your posts. Shame as you bring up some interesting points

[dadio]

Daniel, it's not a good cut. The separation is too dynamic as opposed to a top& bottom cut correctly executed.

 

OK... thank you.. that's a reasonable argument... which I would counter by saying that the speed of separation may SEEM dangerous... however, because the butt is going to drop straight down and slightly towards the supporting tree (which is away from the cutter) every time, the cutter is easily able to stand away from the falling butt. If there is concern about something up top getting dislodged, that will usually be away from the cutter, depending on how straight the tree is. There will be escape time, but even so the cutter should read the top before making this cut. The same precaution should be taken when a top notch is used.. So speed of separation is not really the issue in that case..

[Dan Earp]

Just ignore and let the thread die down bud

[18 stoner]

What specifically makes it unpredictable? certainly not where the butt is going to fall.... the factors that are going to casue a difference in tension or comprssion are understandable and therefore "predictable". So the only thing that I can tink of that could be considered unpredictable would be the exact timing of the release... though that's a stretch... calling me or the technique names doesn't do much to further the conversation or understanding

 

The tension and compression can also be hard to read once the tree starts to get straight... Your notching technique is a difficult cut to make on big wood, you'd have to make it lower on the tree, therefore more cuts to get the tree to drop as far as needed, also there is likely to be a lot of fooling around with the back cut, and especially on a big cut, a tendency to misjudge its height relative to the notch which could cause major problems, you could trap the saw, or keep the hinge from folding... and there is also the extreme likelihood of the bar getting pinched once the tree gets straight enough.. once the bar gets pinched there is going to be a tendency to have to put yourself closer to the falling tree to pull the saw out etc...

I'd like to see some video of ANYONE making a top notch on a big leaner like that ash... or rolling one that big out with a winch... now that would be something, and we could really compare the three methods... I put out videos of quick and effective solutions to real world scenarios, from the field.. ALL i hear back is speculation and name calling... have you nothing else to offer?

 

Yes I AM... parading it around touting it as safe... absolutely safe, in that it stands alone as a safe cut, having used it over 1000 times... certainly you could bring the cut down to chest level if it would make you feel better...

 

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY ITS RELATIVELY SAFE... that is safer than many other options... for example, climbing and rigging the top, falling the supporting tree, perhaps even fooling around with a winch & making a notch on the top side...

 

simply calling the cut unpredictable or unsafe does not make it so... where did you get that idea?... what evidence can use to support that argument, logic, empirical evidence, anything????? I simply have not heard anyone provide a reasonable argument against the use of this cut in some 20 pages of heated discussion... of course when the facts don't support your case, you can always fall back on name calling, which seems to be the case here..

 

Daniel, I'm struggling a little here. Not with your explainations or even reasons for doing the cut. What I have got issues with, is how you find it fine to throw accusations of name calling, yet I've not read anything that you should take offence over.

 

Also, the fact you keep calling this a "discussion". It is not. It is more along the lines of preaching. The fact that you have to dissect any comments that you dont agree with is recipe of this. You have have clearly shown this in the many quotes you gave above.

 

As for the cut itself, its not new, its not ground breaking, I wouldnt call it safe either. I was doing this cut over 25 years ago, so dont need telling if its good or not, I made my mind up many, many years before a lot on here had ever held a saw.

[Amelanchier]

Yes I AM... parading it around touting it as safe... absolutely safe, in that it stands alone as a safe cut, having used it over 1000 times... certainly you could bring the cut down to chest level if it would make you feel better...

 

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY ITS RELATIVELY SAFE... that is safer than many other options... for example, climbing and rigging the top, falling the supporting tree, perhaps even fooling around with a winch & making a notch on the top side...

 

simply calling the cut unpredictable or unsafe does not make it so... where did you get that idea?... what evidence can use to support that argument, logic, empirical evidence, anything????? I simply have not heard anyone provide a reasonable argument against the use of this cut in some 20 pages of heated discussion... of course when the facts don't support your case, you can always fall back on name calling, which seems to be the case here..

 

A handful of videos aren't sufficient evidence to infer the wider safety of anything. In stats there's an error known as the Texas sharpshooter fallacy.

Guy shoots randomly at a barn then walks over and paints a target around the closest cluster of holes and claims to be a sharpshooter. We have no way of knowing if your videos are just a target painted after the fact. We never will have and actually neither will you.

 

Add natural overconfidence and brace for deadlock.

[dadio]

I was not referring to me with the name calling... I was referring to calling the cuts names..

 

so WHY would you "not call it safe"???