Change of use?

[County4x4]

Hi all,

 

I'm sure I've seen this mentioned here before but not sure of the correct term to search for to be honest - tried the title of the thread with no luck so thought I'd just ask!

 

My mate is currently getting the legal stuff done to take on the rental of some commercial glasshouses. He had a meeting with the owner of the site a couple of days ago, and had a chat about his various plans - one of which involved storing firewood for onward sale in one of the glasshouses, or possibly one of the polytunnels if we re-covered it and added it to the agreement. The owner was a bit concerned about the firewood bit as he thought it might land him in bother with the council.

 

There's a bit in the property details that says: "The property will be available To Let on a full repairing and insuring basis, “Farm Business

Tenancy”, the length of term etc. is open to negotiation."

 

So I guess the question is - "would firewood sales qualify as part of a farm business tenancy?" Or would it constitute a change of use or something equally expensive and complicated? Funnily enough I asked a farmer about it today while I was doing his chimneys and his advice was "I'd just do it and say nowt"!!

 

Any ideas?

 

Cheers,

 

Andy

[openspaceman]

Hi all,

 

 

There's a bit in the property details that says: "The property will be available To Let on a full repairing and insuring basis, “Farm Business

Tenancy”, the length of term etc. is open to negotiation."

 

I would have thought these are terms between the landlord and his licencee or tenant, firewood could well be within the scope of a farm business.

 

The planning would be between the farmer and local planning office. Importing wood and storing it would be B8 in planning terms and not an agricultural use, similarly processing imported wood into firewood would be B2 and again not be an agricultural use.

 

So I guess the question is - "would firewood sales qualify as part of a farm business tenancy?" Or would it constitute a change of use or something equally expensive and complicated? Funnily enough I asked a farmer about it today while I was doing his chimneys and his advice was "I'd just do it and say nowt"!!

 

Much the same view I would take, if no one from planning notices for ten years then you can acquire rights, if they do notice and ask for retrospective change of use you probably have a couple of years before they take action. Mind the planning application will be priced on the area that you apply for.

 

The more serious aspect is the landlord IMO.

[County4x4]

Thank you Catweazel.

 

Hmmm. I wonder if this could be sticky territory.

 

We've heard that apparently the site is considered a bit sensitive, as originally, it seems that the glasshouses etc were built mainly in order that a house could also be built on the land. The chap behind this was apparently growing plants on contract to one of the big DIY chains - and eventually they decided to only pay half as much, or simply cancelled the order - so he went bust, which is when the current owner picked it up as a liquidation sale. The site has been empty more or less ever since, and has now been offered as a range of packages or for sale as a whole. The house and some of the polytunnels are currently being rented and the tunnels are being used as sheep housing. Apart from the scallies growing weed, the only other thing going on was an abortive attempt to grow ready to go hanging baskets in one of the glasshouses.

 

This may be one of those things where one or two "concerned local residents" are not happy about anything that goes on there whether it may be to their benefit or not. I guess at the end of the day if we can't do firewood from there then we'll just have to concentrate on the other stuff instead until we find somewhere suitable.

 

But out of interest - do all the farms that store and season wood in barns and so on have to get planning permission, or should they? Or are things a bit different if it's your own farm?

 

Thanks again,

 

Andy

[openspaceman]

TThe house and some of the polytunnels are currently being rented and the tunnels are being used as sheep housing. Apart from the scallies growing weed, the only other thing going on was an abortive attempt to grow ready to go hanging baskets in one of the glasshouses.

 

All of the above will be considered agricultural/horticultural uses, growing the weed will need a licence from DEFRA, some varieties make a nice cloth:biggrin:

But out of interest - do all the farms that store and season wood in barns and so on have to get planning permission, or should they? Or are things a bit different if it's your own farm?

 

 

English law has the concept of prescription; if you have carried on doing something legal but without challenges over a long period ( 11, 20 or 40 years depending on how firmly you want to record the right IIRC) then you can generally carry on with it. Most tree surgeons yards will have started out this way.

 

Technically they should have applied for pp and change of use.

 

A farm or forestry enterprise could have such a business, like many estate sawmills, as part of the agricultural/forestry holding because they produce products from timber grown on the site.

[Rob D]

I'm going through all this at the moment - have used a polytunnel to dry logs for 6 years and now that it has been flagged to the council they are saying I need to apply for change of use....

 

 

So it is sticky territory and not a given you an do this.... but then look at all the yards and places around the country where it is going on.

 

 

If someone notices you could have a problem.

[County4x4]

That's pretty much what I'm concerned about mate. Given the somewhat shady past of the site, there may be one or two locals making it their business to notice!

[renewablejohn]

If the site is up with R Turner then it does come with baggage. Have looked at it myself with a guy wanting to grow peppers with me providing the heat but we walked away.

[grahamc]

Can only comment on the change of use part of the question. We have had a similar issue with our farm within the last year. We were approached by the local council regarding our firewood sales from our farm buildings ( delivery only to customer, no retail ) The result being we have had to apply for change of use on our buildings. We have successfully gained B2 and B8 industrial use on them for our firewood operation, and have business rates to pay on the specific sheds and polytunnels that we use for it. The acid test from the planning point of view is does the wood that you are selling originate from your own property, or does it get brought in. If the wood originates from off site, then the conversion and selling becomes an industrial process, and not an agricultural / forestry operation. I think there are very few firewood operations who solely use / sell firewood from their own land, and from this I think it fair to say that most firewood yards work outside of the law regarding planning permission. Dont assume that what you are doing is right and legal because there are other local firewood merchants doing the same without any problem. On a sensitive site, it might not work, especially if you have to supply transport statements etc to justify how wood arrives and exits your site, and how the noise of converting it can / will affect any neighbours quality of life.