Buzzard "Management" Research to go ahead

[Sam Thompson]

To the people who object to "tampering" with nest/egg pricking - do you oppose the same techniques used on other birds - such as the Canada Goose?

 

Kennedy is 100% right, often by trying do the right thing people cock it up, look at the falcons that were at Dark Peak a few years ago.

 

 

But have -you- already decided on the 'right' outcome?

 

If the answer isn't the one you want to see, will you accept that good research has proved your preconceptions wrong, or will you reject the research because it doesn't suit your opinions and claim that the itself research is flawed. If you claim it's flawed, will you do so having proved this in an evidence-based fashion, or just assume it must be because it doesn't suit you?

 

Alec

 

Not really, I have my ideas from working closely with wildlife since I was about 6, but we shall see and I'm open to what they come up with. However I have read "research" done before in Carrion Crow damage and it just tally up with what I and everyone else has seen on the ground.

 

No-one who has spent any time working on grouse moors, especially one's with a cappercallie population can deny that buzzards and raptors generally have a large affect on numbers.

 

If we ever want good numbers of black game we need to stop listening the the FC and stop planting tree's, increase all levels of predator control and designate exclusion zones for the public.

[HCR]

I'm looking forward to seeing the results of the research. I have to say that I don't believe for one minute that buzzards are connected to the lapwing decline, but I'll read what they conclude. Rolling fields in May and overstocking might be more significant factors...

[easy-lift guy]

In fairness ELG a turkey buzzard is actually a vulture, the buzzard we are talking about is very different. probably similar rules apply but I thought today I would be a pedant!

 

Thanks for the correction are either named bird a scavenger or predator or both:confused1:

easy-lift guy

[Le Sanglier]

Thanks for the correction are either named bird a scavenger or predator or both:confused1:

easy-lift guy

 

The Buzzard (ours) is a bit more of a predator. I have seen one take a pigeon out of a tree and a weasel off the ground but will take smaller prey like lizards crickets etc.

[agg221]

To the people who object to "tampering" with nest/egg pricking - do you oppose the same techniques used on other birds - such as the Canada Goose?

 

If we ever want good numbers of black game we need to stop listening the the FC and stop planting tree's, increase all levels of predator control and designate exclusion zones for the public.

 

I don't oppose the control of vermin, protection of crops, or well thought through attempts to remedy an imbalance created through previous poor practice, e.g. eradication of introduced species which prove damaging to the ecosystem. I'm quite happy with the current grey squirrel cull in Northumbria, have shot a lot of pigeons and starlings (the latter to protect a cherry crop) and whilst I no longer shoot, I let someone come and shoot on my land. It is however important to understand the effects of any such 'intervention' through small scale trials with careful monitoring, rather than leaping in and creating a different problem.

 

The ecosystem would maintain a balance if it was left alone, just as it did for millenia before we started to change it for our own ends. If the capercaillie, or grouse, or whatever else, were left to get on with it then a natural balance between predators and the predated would ensue in fairly short order, the overall populations being determined by the food available at each level of the food chain. If the land was not managed it would revert, the area of natural moor would be much smaller so the populations would reduce, but become stable.

 

However, man has a desire to intervene. Your comment 'if we ever want good numbers of black game' is, I imagine, an implicit statement of 'if people want to go and shoot them for sport'. This is an area I have more issues with on two levels -

 

Firstly because I think it's a morally questionable branch of the entertainment industry. If you try to work out the reasons why people want to kill things when it's not for food, protection of crops of defence of themselves or their family (and I've never heard of 'when grouse attack') then I can only think it comes down to the exercising of power, which is not in my opinion a good justification. I accept that it creates employment, but so did bear baiting and cock fighting, and numerous other things which are no longer accepted. Alternative use of the land may also create employment.

 

Secondly, because whilst there is a level on which living in a capitalist society allows the wealthy to use their money as they wish, which means they have the right to buy large areas of land and manage them for their own entertainment, there is also a level on which it's reasonable to consider that the area of land is finite and if its use becomes too heavily skewed towards the benefit of too small a proportion of the population this is likely to result in economic damage. Consider that the UK has a projected demand for 60million cubic metres of wood per annum (10M construction, 50M biomass), we have ongoing demand for food production, and we have ongoing need for housing and you have a reasonable question to ask over appropriateness of land use.

 

Although these points drift away from the original topic, they relate in that any outcome which recommends a cull on buzzards because of a correlation with decline in native species or damage to farming would be more defensible than one based on damage to game shoots.

 

As an aside, I recall that as a child, pheasants outside of autumn were a very rare sight. With warmer winters they seem to be naturalising. It would be an interesting piece of research to see whether they are out-competing native species for food and habitat and in fact there need to be some control measures.

 

Finally, I have heard it said that one of the favourite foods of the buzzard is the grass snake. It will be interesting to see if this is concluded in the study.

 

Alec

[MattyF]

I don't oppose the control of vermin, protection of crops, or well thought through attempts to remedy an imbalance created through previous poor practice, e.g. eradication of introduced species which prove damaging to the ecosystem. I'm quite happy with the current grey squirrel cull in Northumbria, have shot a lot of pigeons and starlings (the latter to protect a cherry crop) and whilst I no longer shoot, I let someone come and shoot on my land. It is however important to understand the effects of any such 'intervention' through small scale trials with careful monitoring, rather than leaping in and creating a different problem.

 

The ecosystem would maintain a balance if it was left alone, just as it did for millenia before we started to change it for our own ends. If the capercaillie, or grouse, or whatever else, were left to get on with it then a natural balance between predators and the predated would ensue in fairly short order, the overall populations being determined by the food available at each level of the food chain. If the land was not managed it would revert, the area of natural moor would be much smaller so the populations would reduce, but become stable.

 

However, man has a desire to intervene. Your comment 'if we ever want good numbers of black game' is, I imagine, an implicit statement of 'if people want to go and shoot them for sport'. This is an area I have more issues with on two levels -

 

Firstly because I think it's a morally questionable branch of the entertainment industry. If you try to work out the reasons why people want to kill things when it's not for food, protection of crops of defence of themselves or their family (and I've never heard of 'when grouse attack') then I can only think it comes down to the exercising of power, which is not in my opinion a good justification. I accept that it creates employment, but so did bear baiting and cock fighting, and numerous other things which are no longer accepted. Alternative use of the land may also create employment.

 

Secondly, because whilst there is a level on which living in a capitalist society allows the wealthy to use their money as they wish, which means they have the right to buy large areas of land and manage them for their own entertainment, there is also a level on which it's reasonable to consider that the area of land is finite and if its use becomes too heavily skewed towards the benefit of too small a proportion of the population this is likely to result in economic damage. Consider that the UK has a projected demand for 60million cubic metres of wood per annum (10M construction, 50M biomass), we have ongoing demand for food production, and we have ongoing need for housing and you have a reasonable question to ask over appropriateness of land use.

 

Although these points drift away from the original topic, they relate in that any outcome which recommends a cull on buzzards because of a correlation with decline in native species or damage to farming would be more defensible than one based on damage to game shoots.

 

As an aside, I recall that as a child, pheasants outside of autumn were a very rare sight. With warmer winters they seem to be naturalising. It would be an interesting piece of research to see whether they are out-competing native species for food and habitat and in fact there need to be some control measures.

 

Finally, I have heard it said that one of the favourite foods of the buzzard is the grass snake. It will be interesting to see if this is concluded in the study.

 

Alec

 

Good post Alec.

 

I was watching a buzzard for about 15 mins last night unloading timber next to pheasant pens... It was just circling them don't think it realised they have roofs on! Personally I think they take rabbits before any thing else.

[Paulfreebury]

I've seen buzzards evolve into very capable hunters over the last 20 years of my gamekeeping career, anyone who thinks that buzzards are lazy and would rather eat carrion than take a healthy pheasant poult is welcome to come to my shoot and I'll put a dead rabbit in a pheasant pen full of poults and you see what he takes!! I think by managing the buzzards it will create an opening for the thousands of kites that have been released into our countryside!!!! I have seen 27 red kites sat on post in between partridge release sites waiting for a buzzard to kill when it does the kites mob him until he lets it go, the kite takes it off and eats it the buzzard kills again and the same happens until the buzzard gets fed up I counted 17 partridges killed by the same buzzard in one morning before he got one for himself and £40 a bird you can understand why most shoots don't want buzzards or kites! Just my opinion and observations.

[Marko]

Secondly, because whilst there is a level on which living in a capitalist society allows the wealthy to use their money as they wish, which means they have the right to buy large areas of land and manage them for their own entertainment, there is also a level on which it's reasonable to consider that the area of land is finite and if its use becomes too heavily skewed towards the benefit of too small a proportion of the population this is likely to result in economic damage. Consider that the UK has a projected demand for 60million cubic metres of wood per annum (10M construction, 50M biomass), we have ongoing demand for food production, and we have ongoing need for housing and you have a reasonable question to ask over appropriateness of land use.

 

If land ownership is becoming for the 'entertainment' of a small proportion of the population where is all the food coming from? I know we have many farmers on Arbtalk and I would be very surprised if they felt they were doing it for their own entertainment.

 

Whilst I think I know what you mean, but I would have thought the scale must be insignificant when put against productive land.

 

However, I would be interested to understand your alternatives to the present system.

[NI Tree]

I've seen buzzards evolve into very capable hunters over the last 20 years of my gamekeeping career, anyone who thinks that buzzards are lazy and would rather eat carrion than take a healthy pheasant poult is welcome to come to my shoot and I'll put a dead rabbit in a pheasant pen full of poults and you see what he takes!! I think by managing the buzzards it will create an opening for the thousands of kites that have been released into our countryside!!!! I have seen 27 red kites sat on post in between partridge release sites waiting for a buzzard to kill when it does the kites mob him until he lets it go, the kite takes it off and eats it the buzzard kills again and the same happens until the buzzard gets fed up I counted 17 partridges killed by the same buzzard in one morning before he got one for himself and £40 a bird you can understand why most shoots don't want buzzards or kites! Just my opinion and observations.

 

well said we had the excatly same problem

[Le Sanglier]

I've seen buzzards evolve into very capable hunters over the last 20 years of my gamekeeping career, anyone who thinks that buzzards are lazy and would rather eat carrion than take a healthy pheasant poult is welcome to come to my shoot and I'll put a dead rabbit in a pheasant pen full of poults and you see what he takes!! I think by managing the buzzards it will create an opening for the thousands of kites that have been released into our countryside!!!! I have seen 27 red kites sat on post in between partridge release sites waiting for a buzzard to kill when it does the kites mob him until he lets it go, the kite takes it off and eats it the buzzard kills again and the same happens until the buzzard gets fed up I counted 17 partridges killed by the same buzzard in one morning before he got one for himself and £40 a bird you can understand why most shoots don't want buzzards or kites! Just my opinion and observations.

Interesting post,I have seen buzzards and kites hunting together whilst farmers cut hay, sometimes a good dozen of each, i wondered what the dynamics were between these two birds.