Gets my vote

[skyhuck]

.

 

It really is a depressing thread.

 

Indeed.

 

But not as depressing as having a loved one killed by someone who has already served time for murder and is then released.

[Daniël Bos]

Err, I was only responding to the claim that "all the countries that have the death penalty have higher crime rates than us"

 

So its not pointless at all!!!!

 

 

And I was pointing out that that list has no true statistical value as such, as crime figures in such a wide array of countries cannot be compared.

 

I thought it was pointless to use up so much virtual paper when all you were saying "the UK's crime rates are higher than some counties that do have the DP" In my humble opinion your point would have come across clearer as this list contains a large amount of countries with hideous human rights issues etc.

 

I meant no offense sir, but I still reckon it was pointless.

[skyhuck]

I would say for the most part, yes 'huck.

 

Looking at the list, it is a mixture of (predominantly) developing nations and authoritarian regimes. Quite a lot of Caribbean islands too, bizarrely!

 

I'm not saying that I do not empathise with the desire for revenge when a crime has been committed. I'm not saying that the people who are put to death don't deserve it, but I am saying that empirically it does not reduce the crime rate and is therefore a pointless exercise in primitive, uncivilised behaviour.

 

In my opinion, a culture which views there to be a legal instance in which taking a person's life is not only acceptable, but legally required, is far more likely to have a higher rate of murder.

 

Jonathan

 

But prison does not work, so should we stop using them???????

[skyhuck]

And I was pointing out that that list has no true statistical value as such, as crime figures in such a wide array of countries cannot be compared.

 

I thought it was pointless to use up so much virtual paper when all you were saying "the UK's crime rates are higher than some counties that do have the DP" In my humble opinion your point would have come across clearer as this list contains a large amount of countries with hideous human rights issues etc.

 

I meant no offense sir, but I still reckon it was pointless.

 

I did not compare crime rate figures for other countries, others were, I was merely pointing out that even this poor comparison did not support their argument.

[skyhuck]

One thing is for sure, dead people do not commit crimes.

[Big J]

But prison does not work, so should we stop using them???????

 

I agree. In it's present form it doesn't.

 

The real key to preventing crime in the long run is not punishment or deterrent. The key is to look at the contributing factors that lead to the crime being committed in the first place. In the case of the UK, we have a largely unequal society, and huge expansion in the (for want of a more PC term) 'lower social strata'. As civilisation becomes more automated, mechanised, the job opportunities for those with limited skills are few. Hence our crime rate. It's much worse in the US though, as any inequality we have here is insignificant compared to America.

 

Sadly, the only real measure that would lead to long term reduction in crime is a control on birthrate. If everyone has a job and resources are more plentiful, there is far less likelihood of crime being committed.

 

Jonathan

[easy-lift guy]

Rover the stats you quote are a bit squed since I est. 60% of said cost to kill off prisoners is wasted in the appeal process, - 60% and you would be closer to the actual cost, Provide only 1 appeal for non-death cases and also the same for DNA cases and you will clear the back logs very fast and also you will have your true deterent in place. Since the Accused/Convicted know the system is full they and their lawyers will abuse the process as much as they can, go's back to tort reform as well, another topic I am sure. FYI when taking into consdideration the population of the US compared to NORWAY, Try Russia, I believe you will get a better stat to work with, also they do not provide Holiday camps like some prison systems in Europe. Also the Mid-term budget cut was needed since the State of Florida must have a balance budget in order to conduct day to day business, unlike the Federal government spending it's self and the citizens of same country into the ground. That covers some, anything else?

elg

[Daniël Bos]

Rover the stats you quote are a bit squed since I est. 60% of said cost to kill off prisoners is wasted in the appeal process, - 60% and you would be closer to the actual cost, Provide only 1 appeal for non-death cases and also the same for DNA cases and you will clear the back logs very fast and also you will have your true deterent in place. Since the Accused/Convicted know the system is full they and their lawyers will abuse the process as much as they can, go's back to tort reform as well, another topic I am sure. FYI when taking into consdideration the population of the US compared to NORWAY, Try Russia, I believe you will get a better stat to work with, also they do not provide Holiday camps like some prison systems in Europe. Also the Mid-term budget cut was needed since the State of Florida must have a balance budget in order to conduct day to day business, unlike the Federal government spending it's self and the citizens of same country into the ground. That covers some, anything else?

elg

 

Ted, are you saying people sentenced to death should not be allowed to appeal? Also I'm afraid your 60% of costs estimate is not based on actual figures or is it?

I never said crime rates or even violent crime rates per capita were higher in the USA than they are in Norway though.

As far as national budgets are concerned the USA does have one of the worst records internationally and owes more dept per capita than any other nation (and has done so for a long long time before we go into "this government sucks").

[easy-lift guy]

What I am saying is endless appeals times thousands of convicted persons is not acceptable and I do know that the appeal cost with your quote is very high. As I stated before if you are on death row you would have 1 appeal and if it was a DNA case also you would have 1 appeal. The lawyers and the convicted persons are and continue to make a mockery of the justice system from an appeal stand point, going back to tort reform.

Although Your comment about our spending habits via the federal Governemnt are interesting, I guess if we tried to collect on all of the debt from World War II from all of the countries that still owe the US treasury it would balance out the books a bit and since only Finland paied off it's debt just after the war It would be interesting how many countries the US could fore close on if need be?, by the way I don't think I said that this government sucks although the present occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave sure has been spending like a boat load of drunken sailors and will continue too untill the congress decides to cut the purse strings, time will tell.

elg

[Pat Ferrett]

I think you'll find the last payment for the ww2 loan was paid on the 9th December 2006