Richard Dawkins- discuss

[Fungus]

Another flaw in christianity is the whole adam and eve thing. So, a talking snake told eve to eat an apple that god told her not to do. Eve had no concept of, or could comprehend the implications of, evil/wrong etc. So how did she do the wrong thing before 'wrong' was invented?

 

Alex,

The snake is associated with and/or a symbol of drugs being used, which later was transformed into the caduceus, the symbol of the medical profession. And the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden, from which the forbidden fruit was picked, is no apple tree, but either is the Fly Agaric (see : Adam & Eve : Amanita muscaria and the first photo), or the Liberty Cap (Psilocybe semilanceata) as is depicted in the bronze doors of Hildesheim (see second photo), in which panels Adam and Eve, instead of a fig leave, both hold a "harvested" cap of Psilocybe semilanceata in front of their genitals.

---

Edited August 13, 2011 by Fungus

[alex_m]

Thanks, Fungus. Very interesting - must of been one hell of a trip!

 

My main point was not what the fruit was or what/who told her, it was the latter part of the post.

[scotspine1]

The funny thing is Christianity and Atheism are both in decline.

[scotspine1]

Elaborate.

 

Atheism is a condition defined by what it denies, its a move in a game whose rules are set by believers, by denying the existence of God you are accepting the categories of monotheism.

 

As Christianity declines it would stand to reason that atheism declines as well.

[skyhuck]

Atheism is a condition defined by what it denies, its a move in a game whose rules are set by believers, by denying the existence of God you are accepting the categories of monotheism.

 

As Christianity declines it would stand to reason that atheism declines as well.

 

I'm not sure that makes sense.

 

Most of us now agree that the world is round (a globe for the pedants) the fact that there are very few flat earth believers does not reduce the numbers who believe in a round earth.

 

Atheists just don't believe in a grand greater of any sort, its not an "anti" thing its just choice to look at fact rather than some belief structure.

[Fungus]

My main point was not what the fruit was or what/who told her, it was the latter part of the post.

 

Alex,

As I very well understood, but I merely wanted to point out, that the Adam & Eve and snake & "apple" fairy tale was a made up story or parable only created to conceal the truth to the masses of what early christianity was all about :

 

- a pagan drug induced "religion" with rituals and ceremonies lead by shamans, who later became the priests and the pope,

- worshipping the Fly Agaric, i.e. the Cosmic Egg, Golden Fleece, Holy Grail, Avalon, chalice (wine : "blood") and bread or host (flesh), as the one and only god,

- with Jesus and Mary both being symbols or representations of the not yet fully understood (immaculate conception of both Anna and Mary) reproductive life cycle (mycelium, spores) of Amanita muscaria,

- and Anna, mother of Mary (see the Tree of Jesse), being symbolized by the spruce, with which the symbiotic Fly Agaric (among others, f.i. birch : witches' broomstick with flying ointment) is associated (ectomycorrhiza),

 

... and to warn off people to stay away from the forbidden fruit, because one would be excluded from a (non-existing) heavenly paradise, if one would have a personal, i.e. an one on one close encounter with the deity without the interference or mediation of the shamans, i.e. the clergy or the only in mind control, manipulation of the masses and earthly power interested politicians of the church. The (supposed) "founder" of the christian church, the apostle Paul, if he did exist, was a megalomaniac paranoid schizofrenic, who had done a bit to much drugs to be healthy for his mental sanity.

Until the last period of the Middle Ages, that is to say before the pharmacratic inquisition started, the use of floral and/or fungal drugs to reach "enlightment" and make "contact" or "communicate" with the deity, was restricted to the higher clergy and nobility, who had a special somewhat hightened part of the church near the altar closed off by a wall or curtains from the illiterate community, to perform their drug induced rituals and ceremonies in secrecy and hidden from the "ignorent" believers, just as they did in monasteries and nun's convents, of which the sectarian convents founded and "ran" by high priestess Hildegard of Bingen are a good example (I'm writing a paper and a book on her). In those days, asceticism was a method to highten the effects of the orally taken psycho-actives or entheogens used.

At their initiation, monks had their heads shaven (tonsur) in order to put the red "fleece" of the cap of the Fly Agaric on top, making a direct uptake of the drug by the brain possible through the fine blood vessels in the skin, in order to overcome the awkward side effects of orally consuming it.

Among us three, Jan Irvin, John Rush and I have documented over 4.000 examples of church art, (symbolically) depicting the Fly Agaric or the Liberty Cap and/or psycho-active plants, which survived the 16th century iconoclastic fury, of which only a few have been published this far.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Fungus

[Mesterh]

Rob,

1. The human mind, i.e. our brain and especially the white matter, the "mycelium", which is an interface between and interconnects both our hemispheres, would not have reached to its present capacities of colour sight, cognition and speach or language, i.e. intellectual and artistic development, if our Neo-Lithic ancestors had not used colourful hallucinatory images eliciting "Liberty Caps", such as Psilocybe mairei (see : Tassili rock art) and P. semilanceata and/or P. hispanica (see : Selva Pascuala cave murals in their tribe rituals and ceremonies to get into contact with their gods.

 

Is that fact?

 

It's just I have never heard that eating fungi was probably the most important part in human evolution.

[Fungus]

Is that fact? It's just I have never heard that eating fungi was probably the most important part in human evolution.

 

Only fungi (and plants) with psycho-active constituents and not in human evolution as a whole, but in the speeding up of the development of our brain, i.e cognitions, a notion of individual (and social) identity and above all development of speech and language, evolving from sign and body language or theatricality (paleoperformance) and uttering sounds to the many languages or tongues we speak today and the ways of modern communication, which seperate us from our next of kin, the primates.

[scotspine1]

Only fungi (and plants) with psycho-active constituents and not in human evolution as a whole, but in the speeding up of the development of our brain, i.e cognitions, a notion of individual (and social) identity and above all development of speech and language, evolving from sign and body language or theatricality (paleoperformance) and uttering sounds to the many languages or tongues we speak today and the ways of modern communication, which seperate us from our next of kin, the primates.

 

Maybe the primates had already done the hardwork before humans had evolved -

 

In his book The Soul of the Ape, Eugene Marais - himself a morphine addict - showed that wild Chacma baboons used intoxicants to disrupt the tedium of ordinary consciousness. In times of plenty when many other fruits were easily available, they went out of their way to eat a rare plumlike fruit, after which they showed all the signs of intoxication.

 

Summarising his findings, which are supported in later research, Marais wrote: 'The habitual use of poisons for the purpose of inducing euphoria - a feeling of mental well being and happiness - is a universal remedy for the pain of consciousness'

[Fungus]

Maybe the primates had already done the hardwork before humans had evolved - In his book The Soul of the Ape, Eugene Marais - himself a morphine addict - showed that wild Chacma baboons used intoxicants to disrupt the tedium of ordinary consciousness. In times of plenty when many other fruits were easily available, they went out of their way to eat a rare plumlike fruit, after which they showed all the signs of intoxication. Summarising his findings, which are supported in later research, Marais wrote: 'The habitual use of poisons for the purpose of inducing euphoria - a feeling of mental well being and happiness - is a universal remedy for the pain of consciousness'

 

There is a lot more (scientific) literature on "stoned apes", elephants and other mammals, searching for and consuming ripe fermenting fruits containing alcohol related ingredients to get intoxicated and reach a state of drunkenness or "euphoria", but the effects are nothing compared to the effects psycho-actives or entheogens trigger in humans, reaching a state of "enlightenment" while experiencing vivid and colourful hallucinations and dreamlike "visions", impossible to be created in other mammals, because they lack the cones necessary for optimal colour vision within mind or in the outside world. Besides, how do you assess "consciousness" in animals, which can not communicate about their feelings or emotions and cognitive experiences ?

I once had a hedgehog in my garden, which came to the ripe and fermenting grapes, which had fallen on the ground. After consuming some fruit, he/she was so drunk, that he/she kept sitting underneath the grapevine without a movement until the next morning.

Apart from some reports of reindeer consuming Fly Agarics and licking up urin of Sami and other reindeer, who/which had digested the mushroom before, of which I was told, that the "habit" was induced and introduced by some Sami acting foolishly with their reindeer, there are no reports of mammals searching for and consuming powerful psycho-active plants or fungi. Have you ever seen a horse eating Psilocybe's growing on his or hers dung ?