CS39 - what exactly does it allow you to do?

[mistahbenn]

Bob, That method is not what a VERY large contractor agrees with AS i FOUND OUT.

I guess each organization has their own rules on the subject, as I found out.

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[Alinicoll]

One of the AFAG leaflets says (i can dig it out if needs be) that we MUST have Cs41 for dismantling. I`m not happy about this but this is what our industry code of practice states. That is not grey. Its black and white.

[arbclimber]

Purely my opinion but I see 39 as a stepping stone to 41 just to give you an idea of how to use a saw in the tree. I did all my training at Sparsholt College and it seemed the general opinion there that you did 39, didn't bother with 40, then waited till you had done 41 before you could really do any proper work.

 

In hindsight this does seem the best way of filling the industry with qualified staff with no real idea of what they are doing.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Hi all, I have sought some clarifications on this topic from my 'good' colleague Simon Richmond (formerly of Lantra Awards) who is better placed than I am to do so and which may be of interest...thank you Simon.

 

Hi Paul

 

Having looked through the thread I think they’ve just about covered it! Key points are:

 

• NPTC CS units provide evidence that an operator has demonstrated basic knowledge and skill in that subject.

• They were originally intended to provide independent, verified evidence of ‘adequate training’ as required under HASAWA.

• They have always been ‘entry level’ competence certificates and do not provide evidence of ‘proficiency’; this can only come after supervised practice and experience carrying out the task in a wide range of circumstances. Evidence of such experience, and any subsequent updating or refresher training, would be an integral part of any defence to support claims of ‘industrial competence’.

• CS 39 was intended to assess the very basic skills of how to start and operate a saw (either top or rear handled) from a rope and harness. The cuts required in the original assessment were designed to ensure the operator could position themselves safely to make simple, accurate step and sink cuts, including hand held sections, and ‘manage the saw in the tree’.

• The latest version now also includes vertical sections but is not intended to address any dismantling techniques.

• Those who hold CS39 from before the recent change will only be considered competent to carry out the tasks that they were assessed in.

• Because there is a specific unit that deals with dismantling (CS41), CS39 would not cover operators to carry out this work.

 

Hope that’s helpful...

 

Simon

[mistahbenn]

Thankyou Paul. Most helpful.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

Hi all, I have sought some clarifications on this topic from my 'good' colleague Simon Richmond (formerly of Lantra Awards) who is better placed than I am to do so and which may be of interest...thank you Simon.

 

Hi Paul

 

Having looked through the thread I think they’ve just about covered it! Key points are:

 

• NPTC CS units provide evidence that an operator has demonstrated basic knowledge and skill in that subject.

• They were originally intended to provide independent, verified evidence of ‘adequate training’ as required under HASAWA.

• They have always been ‘entry level’ competence certificates and do not provide evidence of ‘proficiency’; this can only come after supervised practice and experience carrying out the task in a wide range of circumstances. Evidence of such experience, and any subsequent updating or refresher training, would be an integral part of any defence to support claims of ‘industrial competence’.

• CS 39 was intended to assess the very basic skills of how to start and operate a saw (either top or rear handled) from a rope and harness. The cuts required in the original assessment were designed to ensure the operator could position themselves safely to make simple, accurate step and sink cuts, including hand held sections, and ‘manage the saw in the tree’.

• The latest version now also includes vertical sections but is not intended to address any dismantling techniques.

• Those who hold CS39 from before the recent change will only be considered competent to carry out the tasks that they were assessed in.

• Because there is a specific unit that deals with dismantling (CS41), CS39 would not cover operators to carry out this work.

 

Hope that’s helpful...

 

Simon

 

Just re-reading this it struck me that if the CS39 you attained did not include the cutting of vertical sections, as included in the most recent update, then you may wish to consider attainment of CS41 which will/should serve to both address this 'shortfall'(?) AND cover you for dismnatling & rigging practices.

 

As a matter of interest we do insist on this (CS41) for AC status BUT also we need to see a (very) 'competent & proficient' operation up aloft and down below, i.e. both ends of the system. The CS41 would be relevant to the climber not the ground 'rigger', but both must be competent.

 

Lastly CS40 (Pruning) is not insisted upon/mandatory BUT often recommended where pruning standards observed are not compliant with industry good practice.

 

Cheers..

Paul

[john dawson]

i would be inclined to say the 39 is a basic course, which shows more safety, starting, cutting procedures than full-on takedowns.

 

both the 40/41 are the advanced courses, but are both just as relevant as each other.

 

id say always have all of the tickets, but at the very least use the supervision rule, ie a person ticketed to 38/39 can do advanced operations whilst under supervision from a suitable person with a 40/41.

[santacruz]

nptc cs units are not a legal requirement, they are just evidence that you have reached a certain level of competancy. If you start dismantling and only have 39 the police arent going to turn up and lock you up. I think people get too hung up on how many units they have or should have, which are only there so that in the event of an accident an employer can say look he had cs whatever so he should have known better.

[AA Teccie (Paul)]

nptc cs units are not a legal requirement, they are just evidence that you have reached a certain level of competancy. If you start dismantling and only have 39 the police arent going to turn up and lock you up. I think people get too hung up on how many units they have or should have, which are only there so that in the event of an accident an employer can say look he had cs whatever so he should have known better.

 

Santacruz...I would suggest/advise that NPTC units ARE a legal requirement under the PUWER (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regs 1998) Reg 9 'Training' of the ACOP (Approved Code of Practice) which states:

 

192 Portable hand-held chainsaws are dangerous machines which need to be handled with the greatest care. Everyone who uses a chainsaw at work for whatever task must have received adequate training under this regulation. The training should cover:

(a) dangers arising from the chainsaw itself;

(b) dangers arising from the task for which the chainsaw is to be used; and

© the precautions to control these dangers, including relevant legal requirements.

193 Over and above this, due to the significant risks involved, if a chainsaw is to be used on or in a tree, the operator will be expected to hold a certificate of competence or national competence award relevant to the work they undertake.

 

Further, I would hope, the training & assessment associated with the particular units is 'useful' to you as the skilled operator and not just viewed as an 'ar*e coverer' for your employer...although obviously they do fulfil that purpose to. You're right tho no 'Mr Plod' (actually Mr HSE) is gonna lock you up for not having the relevant 'tickets' BUT in the event of an accident/incident it certainly won't help your case if you don't have them.

 

Cheers..

Paul

[Tommy Hutchinson]

The NPTC assessment schedule for CS39 states in in section 7.

 

 

 

ASSESSMENT CRITERIA

7. Demonstrate the use of a sewn tape sling to aid the removal of

hand held sections

- Tape sling selected is fit for use, appropriate to task in hand,

suitably rated and LOLER compliant

- Tape sling used on end of limb to act as lever/ hand hold for

hand held sink cut

- Tape sling used on end of limb to act as lever/hand hold for step

cut hand held sections

- Sling positioned correctly so not to collide with chainsaw

- Sling fastened securely preventing loss of cut section

- Clear warnings given to ground crew before sections are cast

 

So do i have to actually carry out this activity in the tree because it only says demonstrate knowledge ?

 

and i cant get my head around using a tape sling to aid removal of a section with out a rigging rope and pulley block, what does the tape sling attach to or how do you use it to suite this criteria ?

 

Also it does not say what cuts you will be carrying out, why is this ?