Arb Approved

[pleasant]

26 minutes ago, Jon Heuch said:

but we may choose a £5k quote over a £3k quote. Is that the type of business you could cope with? Maybe you prefer to play the cheap end of the market, continually competing on price? If you prefer to differentiate what you do, the Approved Contractor scheme is one way to do it.

On the assumption tenders are identical, as a tax payer, I would hope the council using my money would go for the most competitive price, rather than accepting a higher quote simply because one tender is from an approved contractor scheme and one is not. Or is the objective to join the scheme to up your prices knowing the council are instructed to favour members of the scheme, because that is what you are saying between the lines.

Edited February 14, 2023 by pleasant

[treevolution]

9 hours ago, Jon Heuch said:

I'm a consultant. I point numerous clients to the AA website "Find a Professional" to find a tree surgeon. Price of service is only a small part of the equation but clearly if one quote comes in at £5k to remove a tree and another at £3k we do need an explanation....but we may choose a £5k quote over a £3k quote. Is that the type of business you could cope with? Maybe you prefer to play the cheap end of the market, continually competing on price? If you prefer to differentiate what you do, the Approved Contractor scheme is one way to do it.

 

Virtually every council in this country has a link to the AA  website for the same.......so the promotional value should be significant. But if you have a council that maintains its own list and promotes that it won't be of so much use.

 

As for small/large firms it used to be much more exclusive but the number of firms now as Approved Contractors is far larger than it used to be as a result of changes to the scheme around 10+ years ago.

 

The AA is a membership organisation and should listen to its members if you think something is wrong.

 

OK I am the ex Chair of the AA (2009-2010) so pretty much out of touch with what is going on today.

I think you are out of touch. 

 

Have you seen the quality of work and safety standards of  some of the firms, (easy to find by doing a surprise site visits or even looking at their Instagram pages). 

 

You would not be recommending your clients to take a chance on the aa website. 

 

Every low life freelancer climber knows a firm that's aa approved that should not be. 

 

I'm not anti the scheme but you need to take responsibility of what the firms are doing after the one day assessment, not just when they need to renew. 

 

It also sounds from what you said that it's turning into an old boys school. 

[pleasant]

17 minutes ago, treevolution said:

also sounds from what you said that it's turning into an old boys school. 

Agree....reading between the lines of said quote, i take it it's a cartel to price fix. Particularly where councils and my tax is concerned.

Edited February 15, 2023 by pleasant

[Jon Heuch]

11 hours ago, pleasant said:

On the assumption tenders are identical, as a tax payer, I would hope the council using my money would go for the most competitive price, rather than accepting a higher quote simply because one tender is from an approved contractor scheme and one is not. Or is the objective to join the scheme to up your prices knowing the council are instructed to favour members of the scheme, because that is what you are saying between the lines.

The "approved contractor" bit is largely irrelevant when compariing prices. The point is as an approved contractor you are made aware of the work and asked to put in a price. Other, good and bad, contractors don't even hear about the work. Having got two quotes I will then look at the quality of documentation, the reassurance of various bells and whistles of insurance, method statement, risk assessment and an understanding that they know what they are doing and that the appropriate resources are being put in place. If the two are the same or similar the cheaper will get it, but if the cheaper looks rushed and incomplete the higher may get it.....or we will look for a third or more quotes.

 

I don't look at jobs where councils are paying - I appreciate the money value is much more important to them in any tender process.

 

The approved contractor scheme is reassurance - we don't need to look at every member of staff, training, qualifications etc. It's not a guarantee but I hope it separates the reasonably competent from white-van man who has just recently bought a chain saw but doesn't know what the word arboriculture means.

[Jon Heuch]

1 hour ago, treevolution said:

I think you are out of touch. 

 

Have you seen the quality of work and safety standards of  some of the firms, (easy to find by doing a surprise site visits or even looking at their Instagram pages). 

 

You would not be recommending your clients to take a chance on the aa website. 

 

Every low life freelancer climber knows a firm that's aa approved that should not be. 

 

I'm not anti the scheme but you need to take responsibility of what the firms are doing after the one day assessment, not just when they need to renew. 

 

It also sounds from what you said that it's turning into an old boys school. 

Thanks for the comments. I may be out of touch, although the issues you raise have always been around. A third party helping potential contractors to leap over the hurdles without real substance behind them does cause problems. As does a larger scheme in that what was being run by one person regularly in HQ now inevitably requires sub contractors. The problem as to what happens after passing any test is a problem with all accreditation, examination, professional qualification. It's good on the day. That's it. A balance has to be had, do you go running after a new company every month, every six months, occasional spot checks?

 

Maybe the AA needs a hot-line, a whistleblower mechanism so where someone does have concerns they can register it. It's a challenge because all sorts of gripes could just overload the system & seeing real issues from the crap would be timeconsuming and could lead to resentment  (more resentment!).

 

The AA Registered Consultants is having a similar issue with regards to re-testing (but that is another matter).

 

Old boys' school. Well yes, a lot of boys. Few women. But if you're suggesting it's an exclusive club that a newcomer can't get in, I hope you are wrong. I would be disappointed if that is the case.

 

Your message has been heard. I will attempt to follow up but can't promise a reply here.

[GarethM]

Have you just admitted to the AA being in effect a cartel?.

 

"The point is as an approved contractor you are made aware of the work and asked to put in a price."

[Jon Heuch]

Just now, GarethM said:

Have you just admitted to the AA being in effect a cartel?.

 

"The point is as an approved contractor you are made aware of the work and asked to put in a price."

It's an accreditation scheme. If I visit the Check A Trade, Trusted Trader, My Builder, Local Surveyor and other websites I am given contact details of people who may or may not match what I am looking for. Some websites are easy for contractors to join, others are more difficult. It's not a cartel in that the people on those websites do not collude or agree prices and may know next to nothing about their competitors. 

 

If I need a tree removed in town Y I will look at the AA website, put in a postcode and find details of contractors near by. That is not a cartel! I will make contact with those showing on the AA website. I could do the same with Yell.com (if I was desperate). Is Yell.com a cartel in your book too?

[GarethM]

No Yell is a phone directory plain an simple, it's not a list of "accredited" or checked people which can include Dave and his white van.

 

You said if you're not AA you won't even get to find out, which makes it a cartel, club or however you wish to name exclusive club.

[pleasant]

36 minutes ago, Jon Heuch said:

The "approved contractor" bit is largely irrelevant when compariing prices. The point is as an approved contractor you are made aware of the work and asked to put in a price. Other, good and bad, contractors don't even hear about the work. Having got two quotes I will then look at the quality of documentation, the reassurance of various bells and whistles of insurance, method statement, risk assessment and an understanding that they know what they are doing and that the appropriate resources are being put in place. If the two are the same or similar the cheaper will get it, but if the cheaper looks rushed and incomplete the higher may get it.....or we will look for a third or more quotes.

 

I don't look at jobs where councils are paying - I appreciate the money value is much more important to them in any tender process.

 

The approved contractor scheme is reassurance - we don't need to look at every member of staff, training, qualifications etc. It's not a guarantee but I hope it separates the reasonably competent from white-van man who has just recently bought a chain saw but doesn't know what the word arboriculture means.

So....it's all about CYA.....covering your arse. So if it goes belly up, you can say to your boss or insurance company  'well, I used an approved contractor'

 

That's the reality

[GarethM]

Now if the council have a minimum level of accredited that's fine for them to say as they are the ones who have to explain that to the people who pay the rates.

 

The organisation such as AA can't on the other hand go, hard luck getting work unless you're with us.

 

From my experience of working for many councils, you just need to fill in a supplier application to get onto their list of council approved businesses.

 

When a job comes up they ask those on the list.

Edited February 15, 2023 by GarethM